One of major problems of the game - life leech

Why the fuck is reflect still in the game in the first place oh wait HURRR DAMAGE CAPPPPP EEEEEE Outdated bullshit right there like at least in Grimdawn the reflect there turns on and off like it would be fucking amazing in here too if you know YOU WANT TO KEEP reflect.

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Why the fuck is reflect still in the game in the first place oh wait HURRR DAMAGE CAPPPPP EEEEEE Outdated bullshit right there like at least in Grimdawn the reflect there turns on and off like it would be fucking amazing in here too if you know YOU WANT TO KEEP reflect.

The joke of it is it isn't even a damage cap. It just restricts which builds can get endgame DPS. You need to have some kind of mechanic that trivializes reflect from rare mobs while still doing 200k+ dps or your build isn't end game viable.

well.. reflect IS a damage cap. it should work that way. so you can risk it all or BUILD more defences so you can reflect without risk. that is the theory - because game with runaway damage (that some call 'viable' and everything else thrash) are very boring pretty quickly.


sadly the defences are not there (esp elemental ones) but peoples expectations to clear whole screens are in full swing. power once granted is difficult to let go.

instant life leech trivializes the game (defences are 100% useless with it, damage IS the defence), adds to the power creep (less defences -> more damaga dakaa), makes a very binary separation of 'good' and 'non viable' builds.

game should be soft capped to make more than 3-4 broken builds 'viable'. currently we have few builds that can do everything and the rest noone gives a damn. this 'diversity' is because of these broken builds - and these are in most if not all cases result of instant leech + CI (The Sponge)

without instant leech monster damage can be tuned down, boss mechanics will mean something (currently noone gives a f.. damn about how creative bosses are if instant leech allows people to stand still and right click to victory) and players will mean something - currently it is the build that carries the player, not the other way around

maybe this last bit is what makes some so scared of this idea?

ps. 'why not buff instead' brought us to the 'game diveristy' we have today so please, to not even think about it

non physical leech needs a nerf in some way
physical leech is good as it is now

if you nerf physical leech, all the CI attack builds will rip, and all melee will rip

issue is the instant leech - its ability to tank everything the game throws at you without investing into anything else besides buffer and damaga dakka

the classic - regen based leech is perfectly fine. it makes game smooth between packs but if you over extend you die.

cutting instant leech would allow the game to tone down the spike damage (the ONLY thing that can kill The Sponge) and make the game a) more challenging (as in - player skill matters) b) more fun (as the gameplay difficulty is more predictable and not based on 'oh sh.. i died' surprises) c) would make defences matter.

instant leech in its current form is one of the last remaining cancers POE has - thing that limits build diversity and game design more than anything else.

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sidtherat wrote:

issue is the instant leech - its ability to tank everything the game throws at you without investing into anything else besides buffer and damaga dakka

the classic - regen based leech is perfectly fine. it makes game smooth between packs but if you over extend you die.

cutting instant leech would allow the game to tone down the spike damage (the ONLY thing that can kill The Sponge) and make the game a) more challenging (as in - player skill matters) b) more fun (as the gameplay difficulty is more predictable and not based on 'oh sh.. i died' surprises) c) would make defences matter.

instant leech in its current form is one of the last remaining cancers POE has - thing that limits build diversity and game design more than anything else.

im playing melee CI, if you kill instant leech, you kill all the CI melee builds gl, sometimes i even die to phys reflect rares with extra dmg auras, and you want to nerf ALL the leech?
everyone would play as caster where you don't need leech

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InAshesTheyShallReap wrote:

im playing melee CI, if you kill instant leech, you kill all the CI melee builds gl, sometimes i even die to phys reflect rares with extra dmg auras, and you want to nerf ALL the leech?
everyone would play as caster where you don't need leech

The suggestion doesn't end at "remove insta leech". It just starts there. The crazy damage output that makes instant leech necessary on your CI melee build is making normal life melee builds next to impossible. It's making anything that doesn't use CI/instant leech routinely encounter one shot kills. But if they remove that damage, the instant leech with CI buffer becomes even more absurd in terms of survivability. Nothing will kill it. That's why the first step is to get rid of instant leech and then balance the damage output of mobs around rate limited leech.

well.. you play flicker strike in bonkers mirrored gear. do you really NEED 100 mil dps? do you really think that game is better because some builds can reach this type of damage output? and deliver it with pure right-click gameplay? does it make for a diverse and engaging game?

im pretty sure you can loose 75% of your damage, still murder everything and not really die that quickly to reflect (stacking phys mitigation might do help with that). stacking defences should be something GOOD builds do. currently good builds are measured only using dps.


when instant leech just removes most aspects of the game from the equation you should know it is just a bad design.

note: ive been playing CI like GGG envisioned it (based on recharge, without ANY leech) and managed quite allright. i know that random forum pleb opinion (mine) does not matter much but Mathil managed to pull shaper without leech on his trapper, guardians and various other top-end stuff without even breaking 10k ES. he shows what palyer's skill can do to a build. i bet he can make CI melee build as well without instant leech and do just fine.

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The suggestion doesn't end at "remove insta leech". It just starts there. The crazy damage output that makes instant leech necessary on your CI melee build is making normal life melee builds next to impossible. It's making anything that doesn't use CI/instant leech routinely encounter one shot kills. But if they remove that damage, the instant leech with CI buffer becomes even more absurd in terms of survivability. Nothing will kill it. That's why the first step is to get rid of instant leech and then balance the damage output of mobs around rate limited leech.

I could not agree more. You've hit the nail right on the head.

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sidtherat wrote:

well.. you play flicker strike in bonkers mirrored gear. do you really NEED 100 mil dps? do you really think that game is better because some builds can reach this type of damage output? and deliver it with pure right-click gameplay? does it make for a diverse and engaging game?

im pretty sure you can loose 75% of your damage, still murder everything and not really die that quickly to reflect (stacking phys mitigation might do help with that). stacking defences should be something GOOD builds do. currently good builds are measured only using dps.


when instant leech just removes most aspects of the game from the equation you should know it is just a bad design.

note: ive been playing CI like GGG envisioned it (based on recharge, without ANY leech) and managed quite allright. i know that random forum pleb opinion (mine) does not matter much but Mathil managed to pull shaper without leech on his trapper, guardians and various other top-end stuff without even breaking 10k ES. he shows what palyer's skill can do to a build. i bet he can make CI melee build as well without instant leech and do just fine.

my damage is enough to generate frenzy charges, in maps with enfeeble+monster life i have to remove iiq gem for dps gem, and seems like you want to balance the game around people with mirrored gear? that's wrong, if you cut instant leech, then cut by 50% monsters life, but then you have to cut players damage by half, too hard and big work to balance again everything.

life or CI melee/ranged leech is balancd now, the broken thing is the leech with permanent vinktar active.

without vinktar you will never ever facetank the hardest bosses with any build
i can barely facetank daresso in colosseum with 800k reave dps ( with 1% phys leech and warlord mark and no abyssus, but with mirrored dagger, rings,amulet, all gems lvl 21; if you want to balance around the 0,1%... )

so many times i lose 8k-9k es to reflect or volatile in one tenth of a second, if you nerf the melee leech then everyone will play caster/ranged, just delete everything "melee" from the game in the next expansion