Ok, it is time to stop this poe.trade silliness.

"

dyneol wrote:

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allbusiness wrote:

scams newbies for mirrors

Wtf how does that even ...


Show me a newbie with mirrors.

Quite rarely a newb can get a mirror drop early in the game.

It's oh so naive to think there won't be market manipulation with auto buyouts. Sure, there won't be OBVIOUS ones, such as listing of items with no intention to sell.

but just because you won't instantly see the manipulation, does not mean it wont exist. it will still exist, just on the bigger scale than you think.

easy market manipulation: I possess 10k chaos. I make a bot that buys all FOTM items listed below a certain threshold and resells them at 3 times the price. hear that notication sound from poe.trade in live search ? too late, my bot bought it already and re-listed it.

it literally takes me no more than a day that write such script for a bunch of such items, fitting any kind of criteria.

there will market manipulations in bulk

the notion that somehow no uniform currency will prevent bots from flipping, is so absolutely laughable and ridiculous, I actually laughed out loud while reading it. first, chaos and exalts are uniformly accepted currencies, and second, if a player can auto buyout something, so can a bot, period. I mean, seriously, look around you. its two thousand fucking sixteen. there are unmanned fucking cars driving around. you really think computers can't send a rest api request, analyze it, sort it, convert currency to another (I mean, currency is tradeable in this game as well, remember ?), sort items and make the best decision with a one-action buy according to a set of rules and criteria comfortably in less than 3 seconds ? I mean, seriously ?

"

grepman wrote:

the notion that somehow no uniform currency will prevent bots from flipping, is so absolutely laughable and ridiculous, I actually laughed out loud while reading it. first, chaos and exalts are uniformly accepted currencies, and second, if a player can auto buyout something, so can a bot, period.

Sorry, I meant farming bots feeding RMT sites. I should have been more specific, because there are many types of botting. Flipper-bots obviously wouldn't care.

Multiple currencies do help against RMT-motivated botting, but I should stress it's not immunity. It's a lot like having more Life in PoE; having many currencies means the RMT-fueled, hyperinflation fall of one currency won't immediately ruin the overall economy as new currency(s) replace the old as a primary trading medium, but immediate developer action is still required to prevent the remaining currency(s) from falling.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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grepman wrote:

the notion that somehow no uniform currency will prevent bots from flipping, is so absolutely laughable and ridiculous, I actually laughed out loud while reading it. first, chaos and exalts are uniformly accepted currencies, and second, if a player can auto buyout something, so can a bot, period.

Sorry, I meant farming bots feeding RMT sites. I should have been more specific, because there are many types of botting. Flipper-bots obviously wouldn't care.

Multiple currencies do help against RMT-motivated botting, but I should stress it's not immunity. It's a lot like having more Life in PoE; having many currencies means the RMT-fueled, hyperinflation fall of one currency won't immediately ruin the overall economy as new currency(s) replace the old as a primary trading medium, but immediate developer action is still required to prevent the remaining currency(s) from falling.

that wasn't aimed at you, Scrotie, but I havent finished reading this thread, admittedly ;)

I'm just confused how people think if theres autobuyout market manipulation will be less worse, just because they wont be able to see anything but tip of the iceberg in sniping and bulk buying. is it some kind of 'ignorance is bliss' mantra ? poe.trade market manipulation will in comparison be petty misdemeanor vs full-scale industrial money laundering operation with autobuyout. but hey since computers do all the work and its not as visible I guess its alright...smh

there are hundreds of informative stories about D3's AH and how people worked it with bots.

First, I think by "market manipulation" forumers usually mean "poe.trade listings where I can't actually buy the item at the listed price." There's a fair deal of paranoia among some forumers here, thinking that a merely offline seller is a fake, manipulative listing. But some manipulation is real, especially when Online status is faked.

So basically, people are pissed that they can't use poe.trade as an effortless cheat-sheet to price items on their behalf, and they actually need to think a bit about the legitimacy of listings and price accordingly.

Second, flipper-bots are annoying if you're trying to flip "manually," but they're relatively harmless to the economy overall. They don't impact either demand nor supply, so it doesn't mean increased prices for the typical end user... it just means that if you aim to flip, or want to extensively bargain-hunt a particular item for your character to equip, then you will certainly be defeated by automation (rather than potentially defeated by another player).

Farming bots, in contrast, fuel the mass oversaturation of online markets, cause hyperinflation of easily stored items relative to difficult-to-store items - usually currency relative to gear - and in general bring in an ever-decreasing stream of real money to their unethical owners as the economy is inflated like a balloon, until the parasite finally kills the host and there's no more blood to suck.

So yeah. I get that flipper-bots are The Devil if you're into actually playing The Flipping Game yourself (and there is NOTHING wrong with that), and that means flipper-bots are bad, but RMT is a threat on a much more massive scale with a much more powerful motive - real money.

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grepman wrote:

It's oh so naive to think there won't be market manipulation with auto buyouts. Sure, there won't be OBVIOUS ones, such as listing of items with no intention to sell.

but just because you won't instantly see the manipulation, does not mean it wont exist. it will still exist, just on the bigger scale than you think.

easy market manipulation: I possess 10k chaos. I make a bot that buys all FOTM items listed below a certain threshold and resells them at 3 times the price. hear that notication sound from poe.trade in live search ? too late, my bot bought it already and re-listed it.

it literally takes me no more than a day that write such script for a bunch of such items, fitting any kind of criteria.

there will market manipulations in bulk

the notion that somehow no uniform currency will prevent bots from flipping, is so absolutely laughable and ridiculous, I actually laughed out loud while reading it. first, chaos and exalts are uniformly accepted currencies, and second, if a player can auto buyout something, so can a bot, period. I mean, seriously, look around you. its two thousand fucking sixteen. there are unmanned fucking cars driving around. you really think computers can't send a rest api request, analyze it, sort it, convert currency to another (I mean, currency is tradeable in this game as well, remember ?), sort items and make the best decision with a one-action buy according to a set of rules and criteria comfortably in less than 3 seconds ? I mean, seriously ?

1. People see that items are bought instantly at certain threshold, they list it for more, because it obviously is selling real fast. Your bot doesn't work anymore/you have to pay more.

"

if a player can auto buyout something, so can a bot, period.

Ever heard of CAPTCHA? :_) Because this is what CAPTCHA designed for, and stands for. It is only the matter of how effective it will be. And no - bots aren't humans (yet), and they are designed to do specific things. Change the environment drastically, bots start to fuck up.
Oh, and also - your bot fails to complete captcha a few times in a row? How about your 10k chaos account gets banned?
You're being very dramatic without taking all into account.

There are only two kinds of CAPTCHA:
1. The kind bots can solve
2. The kind which is so muddied that half the time a human needs to ask for a new one because they can't tell what the fuck it says

If you started banning players' accounts for CAPTCHA fails... what a shitstorm that would be. Mandatory waits is the preferred method, and even that is rage-inducing.

So basically, either bots win, or players are annoyed to such an extent that only the most masochistic remain in the playerbase. Shitty, shitty solution.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

There are only two kinds of CAPTCHA:
1. The kind bots can solve
2. The kind which is so muddied that half the time a human needs to ask for a new one because they can't tell what the fuck it says

If you started banning players' accounts for CAPTCHA fails... what a shitstorm that would be. Mandatory waits is the preferred method, and even that is rage-inducing.

So basically, either bots win, or players are annoyed to such an extent that only the most masochistic remain in the playerbase. Shitty, shitty solution.

You're confusing text-based captcha, for captcha in general. You can use captcha in form of slide those 3 (random) sliders, so they look like this. You CAN make it work.

And where have I said AUTOMATIC bans? No straw man, please.

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Perq wrote:

1. People see that items are bought instantly at certain threshold, they list it for more, because it obviously is selling real fast. Your bot doesn't work anymore/you have to pay more.

wait what ?
the bot will always work, sniping anything underpriced easily. the bot is always faster and knows exactly what items to buy.

if a bot wants to have a monopoly on items and it has enough buying power, it can and it will. especially if its banking on a certain event (item x going legacy in standard for example). it can easily buy most coveted items and raise the prices up like crazy

"

Ever heard of CAPTCHA? :_) Because this is what CAPTCHA designed for, and stands for. It is only the matter of how effective it will be.

captcha is susceptible to bots. basically you will have a neverending arms race and end up like DRMs.

also, the third point of your initial op listed convenience (or lack thereof) of poe.trade.
well, you are now making it incovenient again.

"

Oh, and also - your bot fails to complete captcha a few times in a row? How about your 10k chaos account gets banned?
You're being very dramatic without taking all into account.

oh ok, so a regular player fails to enter a captcha to trade a few times in a row for whatever reason (maybe hes colorblind, maybe he doesnt understand english, etc) and he ends up banned. awesome.

just like in DRM case, you will end up punishing legit users moreso than bots who can adapt and make free accounts like loogies.

theres nothing dramatic about this. once you allow autobuyout bots, they will be the best traders, and they will be the one dictating the rules.

theres nothing to debate here. the more you try to be hard on bots, the harder you will make on playerbase, arriving at similar or even worse situation than what we have right now.

i'm fine with current systeme, We don't need perf item for play to PoE. And if we have all item quick, easy, low cost then no pleasure to complete a build.