Game Balance Development Manifesto Post

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

I think we need this.
Do GGG even want a balanced game? Organic Metagame?

No they do not want a balanced game. If that is not apparent to some players then they either
A) have not been playing long enough
or
B) lack the capacity for intelligent thought

I don't know what you're looking for on the "organic metagame" if it's a segue into your follow-up comment about dictating the terms of competitive play then I do think GGG strives (to a point) to force players into using specific skills/items for effective content clearing (technically there is no "completing" the game so I just say clearing here).

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

Or do GGG intend to dictate the terms of (competitive) play always?

They absolutely do intend to control the game direction and, historically speaking, their decisions are both arbitrary and frequently lack logical reasoning. Naturally, it's their game so they don't need to justify their decisions with logic nor do they need to provide a balanced product so I guess it is what it is. Either be comfortable in playing a sub-par game or move on as many have (for these exact reasons here in my case!).

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

A manifesto post outlining GGG's game balance philosophy would be much appreciated. Has it remained the same since the conception of PoE or is it a moving target?

I seriously doubt this is going to happen. They like the "mystery" and "surprise" their randomized nerfs/buffs create. Basically if they told you Cleave is going to suck for the next year you, as Cleave's #1 Fan, would quit. If they say "we're working on balance blah, blah, blah" and keep things generic you'll keep playing despite knowing in your heart that Cleave will always suck.

Part 2: It definitely morphed into its current state over many iterations. I think the shift towards "let's really make money" changed their design philosophy from innovative to rote. At some point GGG realized that to make money they are best served by
A) Sticking to a ridiculous release schedule regardless of how much quality suffers
B) Adding new items/skills (typically in a broken or OP state) to reinvigorate the player base every few months and keep people playing just to see how OP their newest build can be.
C) This ties into B but it's slightly different in that the passive tree has morphed over time as well to accommodate this (+AC): Keep the Creep Strong!! Power creep has gotten ridiculous because the player base has shown they love power creep so every iteration of the game gets a little more absurd.
D) Ignoring quality and balance for points A through C in order to maximize profits and minimize costs.

The short answer to this is YES it is a moving target because that keeps people playing which brings in more money for a lower investment cost. Quality releases and actual new content (not just absurd glitch-fest, particle-ridden boss fights) have a higher investment cost; long time players would appreciate both of these more but the sad truth is that GGG's desire is for new players to jump on and spend their $20 on stash tabs not to appease the players that already spent $100's ($1,000's in some cases).

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

At this point I don't even care about new content. Nothing would excite me more than the next major patch being dedicated to performance and balance improvements.
GGG, you seem to be uncomfortably quiet on game balance issues. Please communicate. These issues are important, probably more than you realise.

If you're just getting here now I feel like you're behind the curve a little. Players have been clamoring for years to improve existing content (QoL, balance, etc) instead of adding new content and GGG is completely deaf to these cries. Furthermore, QoL improvements that they promised (for free) were released YEARS after the fact and were released with a price tag (blatant lies though NO I am not going to track down the news posts because seriously who the fuck cares anyways). These issues are important to long time players but let's be honest they aren't important to anyone jumping on the game today and that's what GGG cares about. New players = new revenue sources; it's more important to put glitter on this shit game than it is to fix long time issues that have plagued it for years.

Vote with you wallet? Honestly though "just quit" is better as there's zero chance they are going to change things at this point. "If it ain't broke don't fix it". POE is a huge cash cow and at this point it's basically on cruise control so why would the Devs get sidetracked by issues like poor performance or glaring balance/design flaws?

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Fruz wrote:

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

A broader metagame will most likely result in a more robust economy.

The issues aren't just with PvE power creep. How do GGG justify the development/existence of Earthquake when we have skills like Cleave.....?

I would say that implementing new skills, powerful skills creates hype, attractive content and curiosity from players.
Reworking old ones much less, and they need to be careful because in many cases some people might be using it also.

So it looks much more beneficial and less risky, but I agree that many old skill would have a use for some rebalance / rework.

People keep warning about reworking old skills that might be getting used by some guy, but why would anyone complain about their skill becoming better? Don't really understand that.

Unless you somehow break a build with the theoretical change I don't think anyone would ever complain about IE cleave being improved to match the current skills in power.

So much talk about powercreep, and the lame suggestions to reduce player power.

A real solution that will not upset people:
GIVE POWER APPROPRIATE CONTENT
RISK VS REWARD
ACTUALLY LET "PEOPLE" LEVEL TO 100
QUIT NERFING STRONG BUILDS ---> BUFF BUILDS THAT SUCK

Explanation
If I want a challenge for my current power level, don't gate it behind trade, if it is even currently available in game

If I am at the very edge of content my character is capable of, reward is necessary, which leads into...

XP Penalty is OP! Leveling should be a product of playing the game, not a chore. EXAMPLE @someone to me "wanna go kill this fun boss or do xyz fun maps" @me to someone "i would love to but only 30% to next level gotta spend the next 3 days grinding it out first" this shit just drains me of enthusiasm for a game that could be so great.

Nerfing strong builds because they can kill something with ingenuity and planning? HOW DARE THEY! NERF NERF NERF! This is idiotic. GGG actually wants build diversity? Then make more builds capable of killing shit with the same time investment and skill, and not innately disadvantaged by poor game mechanics. Not every build should have the same boss/map killing potential, but surely there can be more options out there without nerfing the top 3 builds over and over. Lets say, don't nerf blade vortex pathfinders next league, will everyone play bv pathfinders? Probably a large number of people will, but imagine if there were equally viable builds to chose, they probably wouldn't play bv pathfinder over and over. Let us play spark, let us play coc discharge, let us play LA frost wall. LET US PLAY WHAT WE WANT NOT WHAT YOU ALLOW.

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waskely wrote:

A real solution that will not upset people:
GIVE POWER APPROPRIATE CONTENT
RISK VS REWARD
ACTUALLY LET "PEOPLE" LEVEL TO 100
QUIT NERFING STRONG BUILDS ---> BUFF BUILDS THAT SUCK

OK, so I am really curious here: How do you give power-appropriate content to a well-built BV Pathfinder? That build has like 12k ES, infinite flask uptime, almost infinite leech, and a lot of damage. The only way I know to kill a BV Pathfinder is a one-shot. That means you need content that is able to one-shot through 12k ES or 17k ES with Vaal Discipline up. How do you challenge it without either shitty oneshot mechanics (which suck) or immunities (which also suck)?

That build is simply broken, if you want to buff other builds to the same power level, you trivialize all end-game content for everyone. You would have to give >10k life to everyone, and lots more damage. Do I want that? No. So yes, your "solution" would upset me.

The reason I am not playing BV pathfinder, even though I could build that character within about 30 minutes on Standard, is that I do not want that kind of end-game trivialization.

And permanent buffing of everything, extreme power creep, is not good for the game.

x

Their design philosophy is fix when ever possible. The problem is that time when it is possible is very short.

#1 Priority = Promotional Content
#2 Priority = Game Balance & Fixes
#3 Priority = Trade improvements
#4 Priority = Mac Official Client (lol)

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Char1983 wrote:

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waskely wrote:

A real solution that will not upset people:
GIVE POWER APPROPRIATE CONTENT
RISK VS REWARD
ACTUALLY LET "PEOPLE" LEVEL TO 100
QUIT NERFING STRONG BUILDS ---> BUFF BUILDS THAT SUCK

OK, so I am really curious here: How do you give power-appropriate content to a well-built BV Pathfinder? That build has like 12k ES, infinite flask uptime, almost infinite leech, and a lot of damage. The only way I know to kill a BV Pathfinder is a one-shot. That means you need content that is able to one-shot through 12k ES or 17k ES with Vaal Discipline up. How do you challenge it without either shitty oneshot mechanics (which suck) or immunities (which also suck)?

That build is simply broken, if you want to buff other builds to the same power level, you trivialize all end-game content for everyone. You would have to give >10k life to everyone, and lots more damage. Do I want that? No. So yes, your "solution" would upset me.

The reason I am not playing BV pathfinder, even though I could build that character within about 30 minutes on Standard, is that I do not want that kind of end-game trivialization.

And permanent buffing of everything, extreme power creep, is not good for the game.

You would be upset by having more build options to clear endgame content with? You prefer to be pigeon holed into cookie cutter builds that may or may not trivialize certain aspects of endgame encounters?

I don't understand this at all. Because YOU don't want to play a certain build that utilizes certain uniques and skills with very high synergy to kill stuff with apparent ease, this play-style/build needs to be nerfed/removed. You should apply to work for GGG, because this mindset parallels their lazy nerf the top balance approach.

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waskely wrote:

I don't understand this at all. Because YOU don't want to play a certain build that utilizes certain uniques and skills with very high synergy to kill stuff with apparent ease, this play-style/build needs to be nerfed/removed. You should apply to work for GGG, because this mindset parallels their lazy nerf the top balance approach.

Just leaving it here that I completely agree with Char's post.

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waskely wrote:

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Char1983 wrote:

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waskely wrote:

A real solution that will not upset people:
GIVE POWER APPROPRIATE CONTENT
RISK VS REWARD
ACTUALLY LET "PEOPLE" LEVEL TO 100
QUIT NERFING STRONG BUILDS ---> BUFF BUILDS THAT SUCK

OK, so I am really curious here: How do you give power-appropriate content to a well-built BV Pathfinder? That build has like 12k ES, infinite flask uptime, almost infinite leech, and a lot of damage. The only way I know to kill a BV Pathfinder is a one-shot. That means you need content that is able to one-shot through 12k ES or 17k ES with Vaal Discipline up. How do you challenge it without either shitty oneshot mechanics (which suck) or immunities (which also suck)?

That build is simply broken, if you want to buff other builds to the same power level, you trivialize all end-game content for everyone. You would have to give >10k life to everyone, and lots more damage. Do I want that? No. So yes, your "solution" would upset me.

The reason I am not playing BV pathfinder, even though I could build that character within about 30 minutes on Standard, is that I do not want that kind of end-game trivialization.

And permanent buffing of everything, extreme power creep, is not good for the game.

You would be upset by having more build options to clear endgame content with? You prefer to be pigeon holed into cookie cutter builds that may or may not trivialize certain aspects of endgame encounters?

I don't understand this at all. Because YOU don't want to play a certain build that utilizes certain uniques and skills with very high synergy to kill stuff with apparent ease, this play-style/build needs to be nerfed/removed. You should apply to work for GGG, because this mindset parallels their lazy nerf the top balance approach.

You don't answer my question. Can you please answer the question how to produce power-appropriate content for a well-build BV pathfinder?

I don't want more builds that trivialize end-game content, no. I want real difficulty, where choice and skill matters, and in the case of BV pathfinders it doesn't seem to matter. You either get oneshot and die, or you don't and you win. That is, to be honest, very boring. It is cool to have that power, but it loses its appeal very fast.

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Char1983 wrote:

Can you please answer the question how to produce power-appropriate content for a well-build BV pathfinder?

Easy. Introduce an "endless challenge mode", like rifts in D3 or "endless dungeon" in TL1, where you progress into eternity. Introduce appropriate XP penalties compared to maps (and other penalties to fit the "all mighty economy") - and we're good to go. Challenging, level appropriate content for everyone - which is PERFECT for "PvP" too, unlike the failed Lab-PvP attempt. How far can YOU go?

We now have something to do after reaching 100, so might as well remove some of the XP penalties in high level maps too.