Game Balance Development Manifesto Post

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

"

Rakiii wrote:

But you can just pick LA or whatever range skill (EQ is (semi)range skill) and faceroll everything in current state.
But that´s what Iam talking about - skills should be scaled with AOE (there are also things such as melee splash and proliferation that we need to care about)

EQ and Ground Slam both have very good AoE. But why no one use Ground Slam? Because its damage sucks!
On other hand, CoC cyclone is one of the strongest builds, despite being actualy a MELEE build (has to come in close contact with enemy = melee). I know, you can MOVE shile cycloning, but that's actually a brillian solution to make melee viable without turnint him into ranged or (with recent changes) totemist.

Melee is bad because some melee skills have shit Damage/(AoErange) ratio. That's the sad truth. Since high AoE or range turns melee into ranged, damage is that melee really need. Buff damae on melee skills like Double Strike by 200, 300, 400%, and they will became very useful and popular suddenly.

CoC should be solved separately (as CoC skill) and shouldn´t effect melee.
Btw if you buff damage even more you will have hard times killing reflects. So you can nerf other skills to be comparable with melee and damage/AoE philosophy or buff weak skills.
Iam not fun of reflect in its current form anyway. I would change it into DoT (damage over time) so you would react on it.
On the other hand instant leech would need rework too then.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

Rolls eye, everything isn't fine but approaching it like the sky is falling never works and it alienates the player base to do massive changes instead of small and tactical changes that have a much better effect.

OK agreed but when is the last time you saw someone using sweep? Glacial hammer? Heavy strike? Dual strike? Viper strike? Double strike? And be honest when is the last time riposte served a useful purpose beyond what pretty much any other gem slotted there would have provided?

When's the last time you saw someone use puncture or frenzy as a melee skill? Or yeah, where did cleave go?

There is more needed with that bunch than small tactical changes. And be honest, people have been complaining about melee not being as good as caster/bow builds since beta. There has always been a couple melee builds at best that were good, usually one or zero, and caster and bow builds can pretty much work with just about anything.

Bottom line is it's not like GGG hasn't had plenty of time to work on this. People left this game YEARS ago because of melee being the way it was, and it's still like that today.

People used sweep until whenever it was nerfed the last time because it was too strong early apparently.

There is no place at all for single target skills really in this game, because the linking system doesn't really promote for most people the use of aoe skill and a separate single target skill. Threshold jewels could have likely solved this if they weren't completely garbage. Glacial hammer sucks and it has always sucked because the unique property of the gem doesn't work against bosses. Heavy strike sucks because knockback as a melee character is detrimental to the playstyle. Increase the stun it provides instead of having knockback and its an insane ability without a silly downside. Dual strike is a bit pointless, because similar to cleave it requires 2 good weapons, in addition this stresses an issue with sockets because either you have a 4 link dual strike or you have a weaker supported aoe, could you do dual strike with melee splash as your only links, I guess so but still has the same issue with requiring 2 good weapons. Viper strike hits hard, but these traditional melee skills that require splash simply have shit aoe and in a ARPG game aoe matters.

Counter strike gems are alright but there is no incentive to dual wield shit in this game, that is a completely separate issue though.


They reported melee would be fixed in 2.0 with fortify, my assumption is that had partly to do with the fact they were going to allow a jewel as well as the gem to provide the fortify effect, one never happened and the other one really only increases physical damage for some reason.

They made cyclone a good skill, even after reducing its AoE, but then gutted a good portion of its damage in 2.1, people want similar things to happen to EQ, despite the ability being fun to play, its what all melee skills should strive to be, not nerfed because its the "only" relevant melee skill. We saw that happen with sweep and cyclone before, no reason to follow the same path that was proven to be the wrong choice.


I guess shield charge is also melee so thats one more melee skill up there.

"

You get 20% more damage dealt and 6% less damage taken. Also you get bonuses to melee damage, if you're melee.
And fortify for bow/wand build itself is a HUGE bonus.

What are you even talking about?

There is no more damage provided by Champion, he has a generic increased damage, but that is not "more" damage.

That taunt can be more deadly to you, if you are a ranged character trying to take advantage of fortify, you don't want to draw aggro off of whatever it was going to attack, to attack you. Even if you do get a little bit more damage reduction.

You know whats huge for bow\wand builds, farshot, additional proj, pierce, easier crit chance, posion\bleed\maim, you know any other ascendancy class would provide far more then champion, its just left with fortify, if you wanted that so damn bad you can equip a bright beak and link fortify, faster attacks and leap slam.

Champion is basically shit now, if you are ranged, if you are melee you free up a link, but doesn't ultimately give you anything amazing.

"

goetzjam wrote:

What are you even talking about?

There is no more damage provided by Champion, he has a generic increased damage, but that is not "more" damage.

That taunt can be more deadly to you, if you are a ranged character trying to take advantage of fortify, you don't want to draw aggro off of whatever it was going to attack, to attack you. Even if you do get a little bit more damage reduction.

You know whats huge for bow\wand builds, farshot, additional proj, pierce, easier crit chance, posion\bleed\maim, you know any other ascendancy class would provide far more then champion, its just left with fortify, if you wanted that so damn bad you can equip a bright beak and link fortify, faster attacks and leap slam.

Champion is basically shit now, if you are ranged, if you are melee you free up a link, but doesn't ultimately give you anything amazing.

This isn't true sorry; actually you can pick up 30% more damage from the Champion Ascendancy if you want to go for it: 10% from the "intimidate" debuff and 20% from "Worthy Foe" through taunt. It is all conditional, but not hard to fullfill the conditions - you just have to plan your build around it.

Taunting in solo play does nothing to monster behavior. In partys mobs die so quick that taunt doesn't really matter at all for a ranged charcter.

Ranged Champion is still a solid choice, so is melee champion - i would say it is a well balanced interesting to build around class to go for.


For mentioned comparison between Elementalist and Champion: Easy - Elementalist has 1 broken notable which provides Elemental Conflux; if conflux would be gone/reworked Elementalist would not be broken anymore and would be comparable to the power of other classes.

"

Wiesl_1404 wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

What are you even talking about?

There is no more damage provided by Champion, he has a generic increased damage, but that is not "more" damage.

That taunt can be more deadly to you, if you are a ranged character trying to take advantage of fortify, you don't want to draw aggro off of whatever it was going to attack, to attack you. Even if you do get a little bit more damage reduction.

You know whats huge for bow\wand builds, farshot, additional proj, pierce, easier crit chance, posion\bleed\maim, you know any other ascendancy class would provide far more then champion, its just left with fortify, if you wanted that so damn bad you can equip a bright beak and link fortify, faster attacks and leap slam.

Champion is basically shit now, if you are ranged, if you are melee you free up a link, but doesn't ultimately give you anything amazing.

This isn't true sorry; actually you can pick up 30% more damage from the Champion Ascendancy if you want to go for it: 10% from the "intimidate" debuff and 20% from "Worthy Foe" through taunt. It is all conditional, but not hard to fullfill the conditions - you just have to plan your build around it.

Taunting in solo play does nothing to monster behavior. In partys mobs die so quick that taunt doesn't really matter at all for a ranged charcter.

Ranged Champion is still a solid choice, so is melee champion - i would say it is a well balanced interesting to build around class to go for.


For mentioned comparison between Elementalist and Champion: Easy - Elementalist has 1 broken notable which provides Elemental Conflux; if conflux would be gone/reworked Elementalist would not be broken anymore and would be comparable to the power of other classes.

I see you are reffering to the node that ranged characters wouldn't be taking in the first place. Why on earth would you take worthy foe as a ranged character, instead of inspirational. Hell I'd argue there isn't good 2 points for the last ones if you are a ranged character on that class anymore at all.

Melee champion obviously has some merits still but it is no longer the "tankiest" or the best route to go for really any build in particular. Like I said before you are giving up MASSIVE benefits by not going another AC class, whereas gaining fortify is literally the only reason to go champion and even then it no longer is this beast of a fortify, its just regular fortify.

"

goetzjam wrote:

What are you even talking about?

There is no more damage provided by Champion, he has a generic increased damage, but that is not "more" damage.

That taunt can be more deadly to you, if you are a ranged character trying to take advantage of fortify, you don't want to draw aggro off of whatever it was going to attack, to attack you. Even if you do get a little bit more damage reduction.

You know whats huge for bow\wand builds, farshot, additional proj, pierce, easier crit chance, posion\bleed\maim, you know any other ascendancy class would provide far more then champion, its just left with fortify, if you wanted that so damn bad you can equip a bright beak and link fortify, faster attacks and leap slam.

Champion is basically shit now, if you are ranged, if you are melee you free up a link, but doesn't ultimately give you anything amazing.

Conqueror - 25% chance to taunt on hit.
Worthy Foe - Enemies you taunt take 20% increased damage.

Damage taken by enemy is MULTIPLICATIVE to all your damage increased. It is additive only with other effects, that increase damage taken by enemy (Shock, Assassin's Mark, etc). For me, it's almost as good as "more" damage, and with 25% chance per hit, it will be present on boss all the time from start of the fight.
If you play solo

About fortify - lol! If you cant see, how 20% reduced damage taken is benefitial for any ranged character, then.... well, sorry, we have nothing to talk about. For a general build, 20% reduced damage taken is equal to +80% increased maximum life, that's 16(!) passive nodes for 5% each.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

What are you even talking about?

There is no more damage provided by Champion, he has a generic increased damage, but that is not "more" damage.

That taunt can be more deadly to you, if you are a ranged character trying to take advantage of fortify, you don't want to draw aggro off of whatever it was going to attack, to attack you. Even if you do get a little bit more damage reduction.

You know whats huge for bow\wand builds, farshot, additional proj, pierce, easier crit chance, posion\bleed\maim, you know any other ascendancy class would provide far more then champion, its just left with fortify, if you wanted that so damn bad you can equip a bright beak and link fortify, faster attacks and leap slam.

Champion is basically shit now, if you are ranged, if you are melee you free up a link, but doesn't ultimately give you anything amazing.

Conqueror - 25% chance to taunt on hit.
Worthy Foe - Enemies you taunt take 20% increased damage.

Damage taken by enemy is MULTIPLICATIVE to all your damage increased. It is additive only with other effects, that increase damage taken by enemy (Shock, Assassin's Mark, etc). For me, it's almost as good as "more" damage, and with 25% chance per hit, it will be present on boss all the time from start of the fight.
If you play solo

About fortify - lol! If you cant see, how 20% reduced damage taken is benefitial for any ranged character, then.... well, sorry, we have nothing to talk about. For a general build, 20% reduced damage taken is equal to +80% increased maximum life, that's 16(!) passive nodes for 5% each.

So 1\4 of the time you get the more multiplier? I guess thats a thing. My point is aside from fortify, the class has nothing else for ranged characters. Literally nothing else.


I know fortify can be good, but in terms of it being better then things like farshot, easier crit chance or really any other of the ascendancy classes, I just dont agree it is. Neither do a good number of players, which is why you saw champion literally fall off the cliff after his nerfs.

"

goetzjam wrote:

So 1\4 of the time you get the more multiplier? I guess thats a thing. My point is aside from fortify, the class has nothing else for ranged characters. Literally nothing else.

After a successful roll the enemy is taunted for a while and takes increased damage, long enough to be procced again in the meantime.

"

goetzjam wrote:

I know fortify can be good, but in terms of it being better then things like farshot, easier crit chance or really any other of the ascendancy classes, I just dont agree it is. Neither do a good number of players, which is why you saw champion literally fall off the cliff after his nerfs.

Champ is still a strong option in HC, fortify is just so good. You just don't see as much champs anymore because it got nerfed a bit and people who want HC easymode roll a jug this league. Also Slayer is a strong alternative now for many builds and fun to play.

"

Sa_Re wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

So 1\4 of the time you get the more multiplier? I guess thats a thing. My point is aside from fortify, the class has nothing else for ranged characters. Literally nothing else.

After a successful roll the enemy is taunted for a while and takes increased damage, long enough to be procced again in the meantime.

"

goetzjam wrote:

I know fortify can be good, but in terms of it being better then things like farshot, easier crit chance or really any other of the ascendancy classes, I just dont agree it is. Neither do a good number of players, which is why you saw champion literally fall off the cliff after his nerfs.

Champ is still a strong option in HC, fortify is just so good. You just don't see as much champs anymore because it got nerfed a bit and people who want HC easymode roll a jug this league. Also Slayer is a strong alternative now for many builds and fun to play.

Thats my point is that alteratives are simply better in almost all cases, yes in HC you could still go champ on a ranged character, it just feels like you will be missing out on even more after they nerfed champion and after you get access to 8 points now, instead of 6.

Would really like to hear how stats like Ancestral Warchief and Earthquake being the top 2 primary skills for exiles over level 60 factors into future balancing decisions. Do we see any significant shift away from these skills as exiles level higher?
How does this correlate with the content thats being run the most (easy maps like canyon, gorge, plateau, etc)?

I'm worried that looking "by the numbers" can paint a misleading picture. For example, let's take a skill - Elemental Hit, and arbitrarily assign it a rating of 2 (on a scale of 10 where 10 is the ideal state of balance) and let's also pretend it's an extremely popular skill that people want to love but just can't. If Elemental Hit were to suddenly be buffed to 8 what would we expect to see? I'd expect that if a second balance pass were to take place at this stage "the numbers" would probably suggest it was over-buffed and needs a nerf asap.
This is pretty much how I perceive the history of melee gameplay in PoE. Every time we get something remotely viable or competitive it gets shot down because the players have been starved of it and want to enjoy it when they can. I just don't see how nerfs get rationalised any other way, if melee had never been nerfed it would still get blown out of the water by contemporary t1 builds.

What I think GGG should do is make a check list of everything that might need rebalancing before doing any rebalancing.