What makes it shit in your eyes or what can GGG do to fix it?
Its damage/AoE ratio.
Cleave has very small AoE and deals below average damage. That's why it sucks. Increase its damage, or AoE, or both - and skill will be useful. Same can be said about ALL melee skills. Increase their AoE or damage by appropriate amount - and they all suddenly became useful.
Overall, i do agree - game balance now looks like a complete shit. I want to play different 2-h melee builds, but i always find that EQ is the best, and any other build can be "improved" by just swapping main skill for Earthquake (and use Ancestral Warcheif for 2-nd 6-link). I want use various 2-handers, but Hegemony's Era DPS is so insane, that other weapons arent options at all (also, non-crit weapons just LACK proper gems for EQ). The only real choice is class selection, and even then, it's just a choice between Juggernaut and Slayer.
1) Xp/hour is 1 of the most important index how to compare skills
There are ofc different playstyles, some positives, some negatives but there should
be big discrepancy in damage between close range and big range skill (you can still clear maps a bit faster with f.e. LA and be more succesfull with f.e. cleave in closecombat fights)
2) So you basically like facerolling content and some kind of elitism. OK, it´s your choice.
You can inspire yourself here or there but it seems you have no idea about balancing stuff.
Atleast you don´t give us no arguments to support your opinion.
3)
"
goetzjam wrote:
I don't give 2 shits what you think the current meta is, if we have some people doing CoC without support gems and then some people doing EQ with as much more multipliers as possible and everything in between then I'd say its a pretty good balance between options.
Ok so basically you´re telling us that everything is ok and "well balanced."
4) It´s not about class being nerfed it´s about melee vs ranged balance but you think it´s ok.
So it´s basically waste of my time to react. You shoudn´t spend your time posting here bcos everything is fine which is perfectly ok if you think so.
1) Xp/hour is 1 of the most important index how to compare skills
There are ofc different playstyles, some positives, some negatives but there should
be big discrepancy in damage between close range and big range skill (you can still clear maps a bit faster with f.e. LA and be more succesfull with f.e. cleave in closecombat fights)
2) So you basically like facerolling content and some kind of elitism. OK, it´s your choice.
You can inspire yourself here or there but it seems you have no idea about balancing stuff.
Atleast you don´t give us no arguments to support your opinion.
3)
"
goetzjam wrote:
I don't give 2 shits what you think the current meta is, if we have some people doing CoC without support gems and then some people doing EQ with as much more multipliers as possible and everything in between then I'd say its a pretty good balance between options.
Ok so basically you´re telling us that everything is ok and "well balanced."
4) It´s not about class being nerfed it´s about melee vs ranged balance but you think it´s ok.
So it´s basically waste of my time to react. You shoudn´t spend your time posting here bcos everything is fine which is perfectly ok if you think so.
1) XP/hour is an important thing for skills comparison, but boss killing speed is also important. Some skills may lack clearing speed VS packs (mines, warchief totem, etc), but they can bring down a boss very quickly. On other hand, when clearing Gorge or something, low-DPS but high-AoE skills (LA) or movement skills (shield charge) may show way too good results, just because a well-geared character oneshots mobs there with any skill, so damage is irrelevant.
2) You're right there - facerolling content is bad, when it's meant to be endgame content.
3)When you have ~20 melee skills, but one of them (EQ) outperforms all others by 2-3 times, i cant say balance was ever there!
4) If you take EQ into account, them melee is in a good spot now. Is it true "melee"? No! But in current meta, "true" melee will never shine. Even if you increase Heavy Strike's damage by 400%, players will still use EQ for pack clearing (although could use Heavy Stike against bosses, if they have a second 6-link).
MortalKombat3 - 1,4: There are ofc other things how to compare skills besides XP/hour. We would compare rare/boss kills/hour or smth like that. We should have choices (lets say 1 aoe and 1 boss skill for killing stuff)
But you can just pick LA or whatever range skill (EQ is (semi)range skill) and faceroll everything in current state.
But that´s what Iam talking about - skills should be scaled with AOE (there are also things such as melee splash and proliferation that we need to care about)
My previous comment was about reducing big discrepancy among different builds/gem setups
What you thing about it?
* Diminishing investment = not linear relation in damage and speed (investing in those should be less effective).
Probably everything should be like this = you can mix/max smth only with big sacrifice (= you can´t have any kind of imunity or smth like that but rather a bit of advantage in some situation)
I can imagine other possibilities how to get better balance here .. such as hard caps or possible passive skill point distribution into two groups (50% defensive and 50% offensive points to spent etc).
* Make all (or the most) supporting gems not affecting damage. Instead of those more damage gems we should use life/mana leech, knockback, projectile speed etc (old ones should be reworked)
AoE gem should have downside in damage (smth like XX% less damage similar to GMP or diminishing return)
It would bring more build diversity and also reduce discrepancy among 4/5/6L items = better for balancing content.
I think it would bring some PvE balance but PvP balance is another story though:)
(well it might help with pvp too)
Last edited by Rakiii#5559 on Jul 18, 2016, 5:37:16 PM
- Unrelenting (Juggernaut) - this mechanic has proofen to be too OP, because of various possible interactions with other items, skills and mechanics (Voll's Devotion, Discharge, Immortal Call CWDT, King's Guard etc.) - rework this notable or take a carefull look at all its interactions
Again the only thing that makes that class worth a damn.
I think your complaints with classes are in line with the complains about champion last league. You see how "good" champion is now, right? Its mediocre at best.
Champion is "fine" in its current state - it is still a really good class, but its starting location is limiting the builds it shines, which is okay. You can do some pretty cool stuff with this class.
Last league it was OP because of the rediculous 18% free movement speed and 25% buffed fortify (better than normal fortify) - now the numbers have actually been balanced and it is fine compared to other options.
Juggernaut's Untrelenting itself isn't the problem, all other mechanics around endurance charges like Immortal Call and Discharge + King's Guard are. Having 8-10 Endurance charges permanently up for mitigation is unique and powerfull, but not OP - the instant gaining part is.
Juggernaut offers a lot even without this noteable, it is a well designed class imho.
Last edited by Wiesl_1404#1448 on Jul 18, 2016, 5:39:17 PM
- Unrelenting (Juggernaut) - this mechanic has proofen to be too OP, because of various possible interactions with other items, skills and mechanics (Voll's Devotion, Discharge, Immortal Call CWDT, King's Guard etc.) - rework this notable or take a carefull look at all its interactions
Again the only thing that makes that class worth a damn.
I think your complaints with classes are in line with the complains about champion last league. You see how "good" champion is now, right? Its mediocre at best.
Champion is "fine" in its current state - it is still a really good class, but its starting location is limiting the builds it shines, which is okay. You can do some pretty cool stuff with this class.
Last league it was OP because of the rediculous 18% free movement speed and 25% buffed fortify (better than normal fortify) - now the numbers have actually been balanced and it is fine compared to other options.
Juggernaut's Untrelenting itself isn't the problem, all other mechanics around endurance charges like Immortal Call and Discharge + King's Guard are. Having 8-10 Endurance charges permanently up for mitigation is unique and powerfull, but not OP - the instant gaining part is.
Juggernaut offers a lot even without this noteable, it is a well designed class imho.
Jugg wasn't picked up for a reason, it had to be adjusted in order to be a bit more balanced, the charge thing will be somewhat nerfed when CoC gets nerfed, yes you can still do mjolner, but thats already a weaker build.
Secondly, champion is mediocre at best, its selection literally fell off a cliff if you look at this patch compared to the previous one. Its whole identity was basically removed, I mean sure its unconditional fortify, but now what else are you really getting?
Compare champion of now to elementalist of now and tell me everything is fine there, LOL.
"
1) Xp/hour is 1 of the most important index how to compare skills
There are ofc different playstyles, some positives, some negatives but there should
be big discrepancy in damage between close range and big range skill (you can still clear maps a bit faster with f.e. LA and be more succesfull with f.e. cleave in closecombat fights)
This isn't at all how you should compare skills, some skills may 1 shot the screen in gorge and give you the most XP an hour, while others will give you a faster clear in a higher level map, but sustaining the higher level map might be too difficult for the build\player.
Anyway comparing ranged to melee never will be favorable for melee if you want to talk about clearspeed.
"
2) So you basically like facerolling content and some kind of elitism. OK, it´s your choice.
You can inspire yourself here or there but it seems you have no idea about balancing stuff.
Atleast you don´t give us no arguments to support your opinion.
?
I explained why the whole 4\5\6 link thing was important to the game to remain power spikes, I explained why support gems in PoE need to be what they are now and not just some stupid d3 like rune system.
"
3)Ok so basically you´re telling us that everything is ok and "well balanced."
No I'm saying there is options when it comes to support gems depending on the build you use, its not like everyone stacks literally the same support gems. (unless they are doing the same build)
"
4) It´s not about class being nerfed it´s about melee vs ranged balance but you think it´s ok.
So it´s basically waste of my time to react. You shoudn´t spend your time posting here bcos everything is fine which is perfectly ok if you think so.
Rolls eye, everything isn't fine but approaching it like the sky is falling never works and it alienates the player base to do massive changes instead of small and tactical changes that have a much better effect.
Rolls eye, everything isn't fine but approaching it like the sky is falling never works and it alienates the player base to do massive changes instead of small and tactical changes that have a much better effect.
OK agreed but when is the last time you saw someone using sweep? Glacial hammer? Heavy strike? Dual strike? Viper strike? Double strike? And be honest when is the last time riposte served a useful purpose beyond what pretty much any other gem slotted there would have provided?
When's the last time you saw someone use puncture or frenzy as a melee skill? Or yeah, where did cleave go?
There is more needed with that bunch than small tactical changes. And be honest, people have been complaining about melee not being as good as caster/bow builds since beta. There has always been a couple melee builds at best that were good, usually one or zero, and caster and bow builds can pretty much work with just about anything.
Bottom line is it's not like GGG hasn't had plenty of time to work on this. People left this game YEARS ago because of melee being the way it was, and it's still like that today.
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
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Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it.
Last edited by Legatus1982#1658 on Jul 18, 2016, 10:12:28 PM
unconditional fortify, but now what else are you really getting?
You get 20% more damage dealt and 6% less damage taken. Also you get bonuses to melee damage, if you're melee.
And fortify for bow/wand build itself is a HUGE bonus.
But you can just pick LA or whatever range skill (EQ is (semi)range skill) and faceroll everything in current state.
But that´s what Iam talking about - skills should be scaled with AOE (there are also things such as melee splash and proliferation that we need to care about)
EQ and Ground Slam both have very good AoE. But why no one use Ground Slam? Because its damage sucks!
On other hand, CoC cyclone is one of the strongest builds, despite being actualy a MELEE build (has to come in close contact with enemy = melee). I know, you can MOVE shile cycloning, but that's actually a brillian solution to make melee viable without turnint him into ranged or (with recent changes) totemist.
Melee is bad because some melee skills have shit Damage/(AoErange) ratio. That's the sad truth. Since high AoE or range turns melee into ranged, damage is that melee really need. Buff damae on melee skills like Double Strike by 200, 300, 400%, and they will became very useful and popular suddenly.
Power creep is through the roof if you ask me - serious ajustments have to be made with 2.4 to make the game challenging again.
Just a few things that come to my mind immediatly:
Curses:
Since the introduction of Blasphemy, the curse mechanic need to be looked at. Just a simple numerical nerf would disappoint many players and would do little to the actual state of curses. GGG has to takle multiple instances at the same time when it comes to curses:
- curse quality bonus
- curse effectiveness on the passive tree
- Blasphemy support gem effectivnes and quality bonus
- monsters/bosses curse resistance/effectiveness modifiers
Especially Temporal Chains and Enfeeble must be rebalanced/reworked - there boni are just too good for the current state of the game and together can completly nullify all endgame content which isn't tagged hexproof (...and there is even Cospri's Will for that now). 60% reduced curse effectiveness doesn't cut it anymore since it is additive with curse effectivness modifiers. 70% less curse effectiveness would have some impact but the combination of hinder and slow would still be too strong. GGG really has to think about this.
Cast on Crit:
Worst thing that happend to PoE if you think deeply about it. CoC generated a form of power creep never existed before in this ARPG - nothing comes even close (not even Ascendancy classes have granted so much dPS/clearspeed/survivability to the player than CoC has in the past).
By nerfing CoC in 2.4 many people will outrage for sure... and then a little while later they will rediscover Mojlner and move on.
Mjolner provides the same playstyle as CoC with roughly the same clearspeed and safty. A switch from CoC --> Mjolner can be expected if GGG destroys CoC support gem and leaves Mjolner untouched.
Hybrid gear/state of rares vs uniques:
The power level of Endgame uniques is insane currently - for most builds actually multiple uniques are BIS however GGG's original design says that a perfectly rolled rare will surpass a unique item - uniques are intended to enable builds but never ment to be BIS without any noticable downside.
The affix pool of rares should be ajusted and expanded, also master crafting benches should be updated with additional mods for rares to make rares competitive again. Hybrid gears falls short in every way over a pure armour, evasion or ES piece right now - maybe enable an additional prefix/suffix on those to make them competitive.
State of twohanders for spellcasters:
With the recent buff to wands and scepters, two handed spell caster staves now feel even more obsolete than they felt before. Sure, you can get a 6 link while wielding a staff but you sacrifice a lot for it. Dual wield or 1h/shield now can reach even higher damage numbers than staves for spellcasters (if you don't really on +3 gems or the sockets) while beeing more durable.
Melee vs ranged:
I know, beating an old horse here, but GGG seriously has to give this some thought. There is no reason to play melee (no, i am not talking about earthquake and reave which are hitting the while screen) at the moment. Melee needs some purpose in this game where it shines, can outclass ranged and be competitive in a new leagues economy.
State of movement skills
Movement skills need to be ajusted in general - we are moving way to fast for too little investment and gaining fortify, which was supposed to be melee only, for free on nearly every character.
Making fortify not work with movement skills would be a healthy change i feel.
Double Dipping:
This has been in the game for far too long; many players gave feedback and wanted it to be removed for month now. Poison and Bleeding DoTs need to be rebalanced accordingly when this change is made. Poison, Bleeding and Burning should not work with trap and mine modifiers and elemental modifiers - oneshotting the hardest endgame bosses in the game just isn't fun and healthy for Path of Exile.
Specific Ascendancy class notables:
There are some notables out there which are trivializing the game without much investment made. For the long term of the game and future content they have to be looked at:
- Inevitable Judgement (Inquisitor) trivializes every boss battle in the game right now and every future boss ever designed be GGG in the future which isn't completly immune to elemental damage. Dealing "true damage" nearly 100% of the time is just OP. It is not healthy for the game and a balancing nightmare for upcomming content.
- Shade Form (Trickster) - overall numbers of boni are way to high at the moment and should be reduced significantly
- Elemental Conflux (Elementalist) - no comment needed, in its current form it is OP and has to go.
- Unrelenting (Juggernaut) - this mechanic has proofen to be too OP, because of various possible interactions with other items, skills and mechanics (Voll's Devotion, Discharge, Immortal Call CWDT, King's Guard etc.) - rework this notable or take a carefull look at all its interactions
That was just a little input from my side, i am sure there is more. I hope GGG doesn't fuck it up this time like they did with 2.3 (player retention and long term playability of the challenge leagues reflecting on that i feel).
Let's wait and hope they get it right this time!
This is a very good post.
Maybe they will nerf things, or maybe they have have decided things are more fun if you are powerful. Points are still true, those things are broken compared to others. Very concise post, one of the best i have read in a long time..
I am the light of the morning and the shadow on the wall, I am nothing and I am all.
Last edited by Crackmonster#7709 on Jul 19, 2016, 6:04:31 AM
