Chris: You are Wrong about Red Maps.

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Fhark wrote:

As many have stated chris always says bizarre things about maps and getting to 100, I like ggg but there stance on endgame is really hurting them.

what's hurting them is the zig zag of nerfs and buffs for players to get to 100 in the first place.

Just my personal take but whats boring me is having no challenging content. I have a double curse 3 totem build its not super fast and all i want with it is to play something challenging and newish. Theres nothing outisde of no-lifing to buy my way into content. Running tier 7-9 maps is dull as for so many builds since the power creep of ascendancy.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Nerfing the clear speed meta is easy. All you need to do is give all movement skills an internal cooldown, especially whirling blades. The caster variants are already pretty decent about this as lightning warp isn't instant anymore, and flame dash has a maximum of 3 charges. The rest of them not so much. Sure, there will still be people flasking up with quicksilvers, but that is much harder to sustain map wide and has a much higher opportunity cost. The problem is that GGG is hesistant to break the clear speed meta entirely.

You are wrong.
The root of current meta is powercreep. Players oneshot whole screens full of mobs (or even 2 screens) in 0.3-1 second, including rares and even bosses sometimes. If GGG somehow increase time needed to kill trash/rares/bosses, the "clear speed" meta will go.
Of course, claer speed will ALWAYS do matter. But in balanced game, clear speed should depend on balanced combination of AoE DPS, AoE coverage, single-target DPS, survivability and movement speed. In current meta, only AoE coverage and movespeed matter. That's why we have so silly meta.
Also, hard maps, bosses and other challenges are not rewarded appropriately (with an exception of uber lab).

Well the clearspeed meta won't go... it is the only thing that matters.

Clearspeed however has two components, one is the damage and the second one is the ability to traverse the area. Since damage is so easy to come by and overpowering the health pools of most enemies by a large amount only the second one matters right now. So we actually have basically a movespeed meta, because damage is taken as a given fact. This means the only thing that matters is how many enemies I can encounter in a given time, since encountering them means they are dead instantly.

Also I'm not sure if Chris answered the question wrongly. Since the math done in the OP is only true for level 99 and ignores one very important thing. Higher levels mobs give more base xp (during leveling it is about 8% per level, not sure how it scales into maps, but if it is the same a T15 map would give more than 40% more xp per enemy than a T10. XP in a map isn't only decided by the penalty you get, but also by the base xp monsters yield, and that one is growing by level as well. So Chris might actually be right even for lvl99, although this still only is true if you can actually clear them as fast.

I'm not really sure there was a need to penalize lvl77+ maps, but then again I don't really see a need to care about leveling to 100. Leveling to 100 was never really a thing for them and honestly they just shouldn't care. If you care about it you are always trapped between people saying it is too easy and those saying it is too hard. For me honestly once I'm lvl85-90 I don't actually care about XP anymore, I'm finished. I will reach higher levels at some time, but I don't aim at it, it just happens inevitably.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Nerfing the clear speed meta is easy. All you need to do is give all movement skills an internal cooldown, especially whirling blades. The caster variants are already pretty decent about this as lightning warp isn't instant anymore, and flame dash has a maximum of 3 charges. The rest of them not so much. Sure, there will still be people flasking up with quicksilvers, but that is much harder to sustain map wide and has a much higher opportunity cost. The problem is that GGG is hesistant to break the clear speed meta entirely.

You are wrong.
The root of current meta is powercreep. Players oneshot whole screens full of mobs (or even 2 screens) in 0.3-1 second, including rares and even bosses sometimes. If GGG somehow increase time needed to kill trash/rares/bosses, the "clear speed" meta will go.
Of course, claer speed will ALWAYS do matter. But in balanced game, clear speed should depend on balanced combination of AoE DPS, AoE coverage, single-target DPS, survivability and movement speed. In current meta, only AoE coverage and movespeed matter. That's why we have so silly meta.
Also, hard maps, bosses and other challenges are not rewarded appropriately (with an exception of uber lab).

Funny, I've been one shotting screens since before forsaken masters. Or pretty much the equivalent of it. So to me movement speed is the much larger problem. Which it looks like you came to that conclusion and yet don't agree that movement speed is the problem *scratches his head*. I'm not sure what hard maps/bosses/challenges being rewarded appropriately has anything to do with the clearspeed meta. If there is enough powercreep for people to just instagib all of these bosses, they shouldn't be a problem to begin with. Oh, is it the layouts you're talking about? Oh that would be a movement issue. Great Scott.

MS is definitely part of the problem, same for power creep. Both together enable the shitty meta as it is.

But if we have to weight them by their influence, MS is less of a problem. If the game was balanced properly, MS doesn't matter much if you clear relatively slow and be able to benefit greatly from it only with godly gear. Or if moving too fast could make you hit something you'd like to approach slower. Or both at a time.

That's coming from players' POV. Developers' one is different, majority of them typically cut down the MS to prolong the playability. I've always wondered why is MS in this game so out of control.

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torturo wrote:

MS is definitely part of the problem, same for power creep. Both together enable the shitty meta as it is.

But if we have to weight them by their influence, MS is less of a problem. If the game was balanced properly, MS doesn't matter much if you clear relatively slow and be able to benefit greatly from it only with godly gear. Or if moving too fast could make you hit something you'd like to approach slower. Or both at a time.

That's coming from players' POV. Developers' one is different, majority of them typically cut down the MS to prolong the playability. I've always wondered why is MS in this game so out of control.

Power creep is almost a necessity in a game that continues developing new content -- if there is nothing new and exciting people get bored quicker. Reigning that in, is much harder than reigning in movement speed. Assuming you actually reigned in power creep by making mobs exceptionally powerful, you make a lot of builds garbage tier (which forces people to play the meta). If you reign in power creep by nerfing everything, you just piss people off.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Power creep is almost a necessity in a game that continues developing new content

Not if it's trimmed properly, a.k.a balance.
By your logic all games of this kind become a oneshot fest and immortal characters after a couple of years of development, which of course isn't true.

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torturo wrote:

By your logic all games of this kind become a oneshot fest and immortal characters after a couple of years of development, which of course isn't true.

Out of curiosity, what ARPGs didn't become essentially a oneshot fest of immortal characters after a few years of development?

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kamil1210 wrote:

Does OP try to convince people that main developer of game that have access to data made of all account in game is wrong?

If you run Gorge and say: this is best XP in game.

And developer say: Gorge is not the best xp/h any many players that we track prove this.

Then you are wrong.

the issue is that the op and ggg are talking about two separate things.

the op is concerned about exp per hour and investment needed to roll maps

i suspect chris is talking about exp per map which technically means higher tier maps would win out.
however total exp per map is a metric that only matters if every map in the game was equally difficult to sustain.

how ever t8 -10 maps are several times easier to sustain, build , purchase and run than high tier maps.

And in the end if you want to level , exp per map is not the metric you look for. you look for exp per hour. and if the exp per hour of plataeu is higher than any t11 - 15 map. then plateau is the best exp in the game.

as for map gated wealth.. as already stated the only gated unique worth anything is skyforth and it is basically proven that chancing them is easier than finding them.


So yeah , Chris is wrong mostly because it seems he is using the wrong metric for success in regard to exp.

And it is this fundamental misunderstanding that has landed the game in this quagmire.

unless you are purposefully wanting to see if your build can survive some crazy ass shit .. there is no use for high tier maps. and sure i can see people wanting to test themselves. you dont need a high map pool for that. you just need a single rolled map.