Chris: You are Wrong about Red Maps.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

It seems you completely missed my point.
I wanted to tell, that if most builds ONESHOT whole SCREENS, then you AUTOMATICALLY will have the current meta.

A clearspeed meta is nothing new and has been the goal of many players for a long time. It is part of the racing mentality. You could get rid of everything and it would still exist, so in this case I somewhat agree with you. But if you remove the tools that allow them to blaze on by, they will necessarily be slower.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

I suggest to increase HP for all mobs and bosses by 200-400%. It will be a good start for a more balanced game. Also, pack density and XP rewards for killing trash should be rebalanced - ATM it's just too rewarding to kill trash.

So your solution is to make the game less rewarding, and yet still not add enough health to really make a difference in clearing trash for offensive builds. I think this would work against you as it would force more people to play the meta.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

I suggest to increase HP for all mobs and bosses by 200-400%. It will be a good start for a more balanced game. Also, pack density and XP rewards for killing trash should be rebalanced - ATM it's just too rewarding to kill trash.

Thing is, only very well tuned/optimized and fotm builds one shot packs, or screens of monsters.
By doing that, it's a big "fuck you" to all other players not being in that case, and I'm ready to bet that it's actually a big majority of the player base.

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Fruz wrote:

Thing is, only very well tuned/optimized and fotm builds one shot packs, or screens of monsters.
By doing that, it's a big "fuck you" to all other players not being in that case, and I'm ready to bet that it's actually a big majority of the player base.

Anyone (besides me) noticed that you may now choose an Ascendancy class, that grants you 4 extremely powerful notables, and 4 less powerful, but still quite potent nodes? Players got extra power, why dont give the same to enemies?
The times when only FOTM builds oneshotted packs, are gone with Ascendancy. Now, every decent build oneshots packs, and FOTM builds also oneshot bosses (even in red maps and Izaro in Uber lab) - that's the difference.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Anyone (besides me) noticed that you may now choose an Ascendancy class, that grants you 4 extremely powerful notables, and 4 less powerful, but still quite potent nodes? Players got extra power, why dont give the same to enemies?
The times when only FOTM builds oneshotted packs, are gone with Ascendancy. Now, every decent build oneshots packs, and FOTM builds also oneshot bosses (even in red maps and Izaro in Uber lab) - that's the difference.

Power creep does not make meh build miraculously become over powered.
A big part of the player base ( so any build that is not considered 'decent' to you I guess ) still does not oneshot packs, Im pretty positive about this, and I don't think that GGG really wants to turn their back on them.
Most players might destroy packs quite quickly, but not everybody one shots everything.

What we have here in the forum is far from being representative of the player base.
Of course, only GGG has actual numbers.

I don't know about you, but I'm not just talking about normal packs in white normal maps here, neither normal packs in yellow normal maps.

Bump so Chris can learn some math

And to clarify for the 100th time, this is not another "OMG don't ever nerf exp" topic. This is just a "you really need to mathematically understand what you've done, Chris, and you don't for some reason" topic. I even have a build in prophecy that can fast clear t15s. It still is faster exp to run through plateau.

The only time I get faster experience than plateau is when I get a lucky Zana strand or gorge from within a higher tier map.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

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torturo wrote:

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exhortatory wrote:

Out of curiosity, what ARPGs didn't become essentially a oneshot fest of immortal characters after a few years of development?

"Pure" aRPGs - D1/2, sacred, torchlight (it's so-so), TQ, GD, or at least that's my experience with this genre.
Don't remember games like BG 1/2 and DS spoiled by power creep either.

D1 had very little power creep because the only additional content they added was a single player standalone expansion, and bug fixes. Hardly comparable to a game like Path of Exile. Can't speak to D2.

Torchlight had massive power creep built into the game. It had a legacy system where you could literally keep on making one item better and better. And thats skipping over the fact you could put like 20 enchants on a single item. I also don't remember an extended development cycle of this game either, but maybe I missed it -- I don't even recall an expansion.

The others I haven't played and therefore cannot comment on. But I will say that this power creep isn't really part of the ARPG genre, but more games that continue to release content. You'll more likely see it in games classified as MMORPGs, as they release new content to keep people playing, and need that content to feel rewarding.

D2 Classic Zons would destroy everything. As would a well built Sorc.


There's plenty of power creep in TQ and GD, I'm not sure what he's talking about at all. Dream mastery alone broke TQ. In GD you can one shot big time if you manage to farm all the way into endgame gear.

It's an issue in every ARPG, the problem is that people are mad about it for some reason. D2 was great because once you reached the pinnacle of your build, you could farm gear for other builds/characters and continue.

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allbusiness wrote:

There's plenty of power creep in TQ and GD, I'm not sure what he's talking about at all. Dream mastery alone broke TQ. In GD you can one shot big time if you manage to farm all the way into endgame gear.

It's an issue in every ARPG, the problem is that people are mad about it for some reason. D2 was great because once you reached the pinnacle of your build, you could farm gear for other builds/characters and continue.

I think most people agree that characters should have the potential to become very powerful, it's just a question how much time and effort it takes to get there. Personally I feel that it's a bit to easy to reach "god mode" status thanks to ascendancies and crazy uniques like Reach/Voidheart/etc.

The thing is... being a god and one-shotting everything actually gets boring very quickly, from a gameplay perspective. It's only satisfying when you've had to work your ass off to get to that point.

Guys, guys.... As fun as power creep discussions are, they have nothing to do with this topic. I don't mind exp being nerfed in response to power creep. I'm not even sitting here complaining about the _extent_ to which exp was nerfed (which, to be clear, I think is too much; but regardless of this belief, that is not the point of this topic). I am sitting here minding and complaining about the _way_ in which EXP was nerfed.

This topic is intended for Chris to learn some math and about the concept of exp per hour, something which has an in-game display but that he apparently still doesn't understand at all. Chris needs to understand that Plateau is just flat-out more efficient (per hour, not per map) than Colosseum or whatever other t15 map currently exists. Thus, it is a plead to either fix the exp penalty to make it _different_ (not "gone", and not necessarily "less", just "different"), or to introduce perfect-layout t15 maps. Because the current system just DOESN'T MAKE ANY MATHEMATICAL SENSE, and Chris mistakenly thinks that it does, as indicated in his dev Q&A.

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This topic is intended for Chris to learn some math and about the concept of exp per hour, something which has an in-game display but that he apparently still doesn't understand at all. Chris needs to understand that Plateau is just flat-out more efficient (per hour, not per map) than Colosseum or whatever other t15 map currently exists. Thus, it is a plead to either fix the exp penalty to make it _different_ (not "gone", and not necessarily "less", just "different"), or to introduce perfect-layout t15 maps. Because the current system just DOESN'T MAKE ANY MATHEMATICAL SENSE, and Chris mistakenly thinks that it does, as indicated in his dev Q&A.

GGG themselves made such change, when latest league (prophecy) started. Effects are also kinda obvious for any smart player.
So, Chris knows. He just keeps lie to players (and maybe to himself).

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allbusiness wrote:

There's plenty of power creep in TQ and GD, I'm not sure what he's talking about at all. Dream mastery alone broke TQ. In GD you can one shot big time if you manage to farm all the way into endgame gear.

It's an issue in every ARPG, the problem is that people are mad about it for some reason. D2 was great because once you reached the pinnacle of your build, you could farm gear for other builds/characters and continue.

What's true is, that power creep always exists in (a)RPGs, to a certain extent. The problem with PoE is, that it's flooded with it, game's inflated. That's why people are mad at it, for a reason. By your logic there's no problem with D3 either, where power creep reaches astronomical values.
"It's ok as long as players have fun" logic some people obey is a recipe for disaster in the long run.

TQ & GD more likely have some balance issues, rather than power creep. In TQ it comes with the combination of certain classes & OP items, same for GD to a lesser extent. In both the power creep is hard to exist at its finest, because the worst inflators - AS/MS/crit mult are strangled. It's hard to oneshoot white mobs, very hard to do it with a yellow mob, impossible with heroes and bosses no matter the character and equipment.

In comparison, in PoE you are able to wipe the screen and oneshoot bosses relying just on the skill tree alone, and eventually a build enabler(s). Gear isn't the defining factor with some of the most OP meta builds.
On top of it we add the ascendancy classes and shit happens.

If this state of the game isn't troublesome, I don't know what is.