The Ascendency Labyrinth - My Conclusions so far and how to solve the Problem!

It only took 1 post of the usual suspects to derail this into a git gud thread again. It's also funny that the usual suspects seem to forget that there is an 1 life mode in this game called hardcore, which is totally empty this league around.

I agree with OP and there is no issue of difficulty for me, there is only the issue of holding my vomit in when doing the trap platforming that insults my intelligence.

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SudianX wrote:

@OP

This idea only addresses traps as far as I can tell. There are other reasons that some people do not like the lab. I personally do not mind traps at all. I dislike the disabling of TPs, the length of the lab, and the disabling of Vaal Skills vs Izaro.

Well, those are some important things yea. I do not understand why they disabled TPs or why they don't add Checkpoints in front of Izaros rooms that stay active as long as the labyrinth layout didn't change (so for the rest of they day). But I think most people really complain about the trap issue and that they are to unforgiving unless you go for super high move speed + silver flasks. The labyrinth should be desighned in a way, that mostly everyone can easily do it with every build. Even a slow summoner should be able to do it. But right now, it is min/max-ing speed and mobility skills. Everything else doesn't matter so much. I personally think this is a poor gameplay design choice, kinda forcing the player to play PoE in a very specific way (speed + mobility + positioning). Not everyone likes this type of gameplay and therefore I wonder why they put the AC points behind the lab. It would make sense if every job class had it's own trial version, for example: The berserker has to fight extremely strong mobs and no traps, while the trickster is more about movement and therefore has a trap based trial. But many would complain about this too.

So I think the best way is to offer a more classic way to get the AC points, so that all builds (even withoput min/max-ing speed) can do the lab. No one asks for a simple challange, we are asking for a challange that goes in line with classic poe gameplay.

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Jonmcdonald wrote:

I hope this thread has not been derailed enough to prevent my legitimate comments be heard...

Anyway, OP, I think you're on to something with your idea, but it's not exactly elegant. For one, how would you decide which labyrinth to take? Two doors in the aspirant's plaza, one blocked by a puzzle, one blocked by a monster?

Or would there just be two "paths" out of the first crossing/walkway/halls room?

Just two paths. Izaro will tell you that the left one is for those in favour for dexterity and thinking, while the right one is for emperors who seek strength and courage. If you choose the right version, you play classic, if you go left, you get arcade. Quite simple I guess-

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Jonmcdonald wrote:

Splitting it like that just doesn't make it clear to the player of the difference, unless you go out and explicitly tell them the difference. But even then, how do they know which one is right for them? Some would overestimate their skills, and some would overestimate their character. Inevitably, community guides would dictate to people which one is easiest/fastest, even if both are fairly equal, making the distinction useless in the first place.

Well, it's like asking "How do you know you can beat a certain boss?" It's like always in PoE: Trial and Error. YYou go check the left way and if you find yourself having trouble avoiding traps, you can tp back to town and go the right way, or you die and will try the right way the next time you go in. And Izaro could tell you one or two things about the trials before oyu enter one of them. And if that's not enough, people can go to google or youtube and inform themselves.

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Jonmcdonald wrote:

Instead of having two labyrinths, there is still only one. However, there are two 'tracks' through each room.

One track is significantly shorter, but littered with traps, with only a few tough enemies in "safe" chambers, for the purposes of refilling flasks. Argus would only be found on this track, as would the optional gauntlets for Darkshrines and treasure caches (anything that could grant bonus treasure keys is here, basically). This is the "fast track," it's quicker if you know what you're doing, but more dangerous.

The other track is the "scenic route." It has many more monsters, and many more rooms, but no optional things.

But the biggest thing about this is: Both tracks would heavily overlap. Unless you are very observant, you should never be able to tell which one is which until you're already inside. They would cross at certain points, such as at the poems and at golden doors and golden key annex/chamber/enclosure rooms, meaning it wouldn't restrict you from changing your mind (especially since you aren't likely to consciously realise you'd made a decision in the first place).

The purpose of this is that the player will construct themselves an idea of whether the traps are rewarding enough to complete or too hard for them, and then avoid or embrace them depending on how they fare.

I wouldn't mind this suggestion either. It's practically the same idea, but everything goes on within one labyrinth instead of having 2 spperate ones. Though I think there should be an indicator which way is trap filled and which isn't. Especially speed runners wouldn't like to accidently walk into the "classic" ways and be forced to clear the rooms, because they lose alot of time because of that. So a small sign that tells the player "hey, go this way if you want traps" would be cool I think.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

What part of my statement said "POE before the labyrinth is shit" ?

If youre dying to traps [Removed by Support] how about bettering yourself as an individual and improving your skills ?

Oh wait youre going to respond with "Traps dont require skill you just run through them" like everyone else which makes your statement that "Traps are a problem" completely irrelevant. If traps require no skill and you just run through them then how do you die ?

Nice perpetually paradoxical arguing you "labyrinth haters" keep using.

No, I am not dying to traps, and they are easy for me. Try for once to read the fucking thread you are posting in. If you actually do you will notice that the trap difficulty is not the problem, its the boring gameplay of platforming that is the problem. That is what is the problem with the traps. Also I see that you continue to waste GGG time that again needs to edit your posts. So to spell it again to you, so you dont make again wrong posts, how hard or easy platforming crap in this game doesnt matter, the problem is having that platform/arcade crap in the first place.

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AceNightfire wrote:

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Jonmcdonald wrote:

I hope this thread has not been derailed enough to prevent my legitimate comments be heard...

Anyway, OP, I think you're on to something with your idea, but it's not exactly elegant. For one, how would you decide which labyrinth to take? Two doors in the aspirant's plaza, one blocked by a puzzle, one blocked by a monster?

Or would there just be two "paths" out of the first crossing/walkway/halls room?

Just two paths. Izaro will tell you that the left one is for those in favour for dexterity and thinking, while the right one is for emperors who seek strength and courage. If you choose the right version, you play classic, if you go left, you get arcade. Quite simple I guess-

Or, you can just name the areas differently. No need for new voice recording. Have additoonal seperate path you need to chose from the first area (that you need to find), and have it named differently (when you click on that table before and after you enter new zone that tells your position).

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miljan wrote:

Or, you can just name the areas differently. No need for new voice recording. Have additoonal seperate path you need to chose from the first area (that you need to find), and have it named differently (when you click on that table before and after you enter new zone that tells your position).

Yeah. If there is a way without changing the voice acting, it's even cheaper for GGG and I'm all for it.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

not any more

Literally my only issue with the Lab, is that when an unexpected disconnection occurs, or the game crashes for some kind of bug etc, you have to restart from scratch. That is literally my only issue. The traps are annoying, and they are not very well balanced due to the damage mechanics, this is true... However that is no reason to complain when the immense rewards at the end are given.

My only request, is that some sort of IF statement be included, that allows a player to resume his Lab run, IF unexpected disconnection occurs. Because such occurrences, are not deaths... and are 99% of the time, completely uncontrolled by the player. And this can cause quite a bit of rage... speaking from experience.

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miljan wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

What part of my statement said "POE before the labyrinth is shit" ?

If youre dying to traps [Removed by Support] how about bettering yourself as an individual and improving your skills ?

Oh wait youre going to respond with "Traps dont require skill you just run through them" like everyone else which makes your statement that "Traps are a problem" completely irrelevant. If traps require no skill and you just run through them then how do you die ?

Nice perpetually paradoxical arguing you "labyrinth haters" keep using.

No, I am not dying to traps, and they are easy for me. Try for once to read the fucking thread you are posting in. If you actually do you will notice that the trap difficulty is not the problem, its the boring gameplay of platforming that is the problem. That is what is the problem with the traps. Also I see that you continue to waste GGG time that again needs to edit your posts. So to spell it again to you, so you dont make again wrong posts, how hard or easy platforming crap in this game doesnt matter, the problem is having that platform/arcade crap in the first place.

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AceNightfire wrote:

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Jonmcdonald wrote:

I hope this thread has not been derailed enough to prevent my legitimate comments be heard...

Anyway, OP, I think you're on to something with your idea, but it's not exactly elegant. For one, how would you decide which labyrinth to take? Two doors in the aspirant's plaza, one blocked by a puzzle, one blocked by a monster?

Or would there just be two "paths" out of the first crossing/walkway/halls room?

Just two paths. Izaro will tell you that the left one is for those in favour for dexterity and thinking, while the right one is for emperors who seek strength and courage. If you choose the right version, you play classic, if you go left, you get arcade. Quite simple I guess-

Or, you can just name the areas differently. No need for new voice recording. Have additoonal seperate path you need to chose from the first area (that you need to find), and have it named differently (when you click on that table before and after you enter new zone that tells your position).

Havent ever played an actual platformer in your life have you ? Labyrinth is nothing like platformer games. Your arguments automatically invalidated when you use such hilariously bad comparisons.

"Its boring and i dont like it" doesnt give them any reason to change it to your personal preferences. If something isnt broken, dont fix it. Labyrinth isnt broken and theres no reason why they should accommodate a vocal minority who personally find it "boring".

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SeedReaper wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Blanket insults, insults in the next post, and then calls for "mods"

Nice victim playing there buddy.

Also i like how you didnt respond at all and went immediately to calling for mods when called out on your [Removed by Support] statement.

Your posts are allowed to remain simply because you're White Knighting for them. With every post of yours like that, I am that much less likely to persist in my well-reasoned criticism of the game's mechanics. It's like you're a girl sticking up for her abusive boyfriend. The boyfriend thinks it's either cute, or owed to him, depending on his level of psychopathy.

Your utter lack of sense is derailing this thread. What other reason could there possibly be to let this crap remain, except perhaps to give the mods a good excuse to lock this critical thread?

I apologize to OP for continuing to respond in this derailment, but there's a persistent dysfunctional dynamic at work here, and I felt it warranted exposing for what it is.

We all know the Lab is broken as a means of gating ascendancy classes. I mean, even the pro-lab people are starting to admit that it's required by talking about power creep and the need to balance around it in other threads not directly related to the lab. They are obviously talking about ascendancy power creep, because it sure as hell ain't spark.

Sorry bud but pointing out that someones build is dysfunctional isnt derailing, as much as you oh so ever try to make it sound that way.

It isnt gated, yet again the same people keep using that term having no idea how to properly use it when it comes to video games.

If youre going to bitch about something, someone is going to analyze and criticize you and your statements. Get used to it, its called "reality" something youre clearly very detached from.

Edit - Also top lol's. "White knighting". Just because someone doesnt go with your hivemind agenda and shitty opinions makes a person a "white knight".

Both of you should have your posts removed, because they are derailing from the constructive discussion that is otherwise occurring.

For the sake of those who actually want to talk about how the Labyrinth can change to fix the problems people have with it, please stop going in circles.

You can't convince every person that the Labyrinth is fine, or convince every person that the Labyrinth needs fixing, so the best you can do is make it so everyone enjoys the compromise (whatever that compromise ends up being).

To suggest that there is not a problem with the Labyrinth is nonsensical, because apparently many people have complained about it. Equally so it not fair to request the Labyrinth be butchered, because many people also enjoy it in its current state. But's not impossible to have the best of both worlds, so we may as well try and figure out how to make that work.

Arguing about whether or not it should be changed is ridiculous, though. It does, though not as much as 'lab haters' want it to, and not as little as 'lab lovers' want it to.