Everyone wanting to PvP in ARPGS have moved on to MOBAs

That's what Chris said on the state of the exile podcast anyway. Anyone care to evaluate this statement?

He followed it up by saying that they probably won't put much more effort into PvP, but instead, will likely experiment with more PvPvE type things, where you compete against other players to do some PvE task better than them.

I have my thoughts but I'd like to see other opinions before putting them out there. Agree/disagree? If you are a player that wants the devs to focus more on improving/expanding/supporting PvP, how do you feel about this? If you are kind of on the fence about PvP - maybe you don't really care too much, but you'd participate if it were fun enough, or the incentives were right - what would it take to get you excited for and playing PvP in this game?

Edit: My intuition when I heard Chris say the thread title was "he's right". He's surely spent more time thinking about this than I have, so my gut was to trust him since the statement seems quite plausible on it's surface. I'm a bit disappointed no one has explored denying the original claim.

We've had a few people say 'Chris is wrong, people want PvP in PoE, they just haven't executed it properly', but I'm not seeing any proof (although to be fair, I'm not sure that any individual player has the means of producing such evidence).

Let's start by assuming the premise is true. PoE players aren't itching to PvP here because they scratch that itch via MOBAs. Given that, if GGG still insisted on trying to make PvP a thing, they would have to offer something as (or very nearly as) polished, fun, balanced, and interesting as current widely played MOBAs. I believe multiple people have already identified the problems with this - to name the biggest: it would cost a ton, it could/would infringe upon PvE balance, and they still have quite a bit on their plates already working on performance, leagues, and PvE balance.

But are we sure that's the end of it? MOBAs weren't what they are now during Diablo 2's PvP apex...but FPSs were. Counter Strike Urban Terror mod anyone? Unreal Tournament? I'm not sure I buy that MOBAs suck the savagery and competitiveness out of everyone, and when they fire up their ARPG of choice they just become loot hunting loot zombies.

I may need corrected on this next point, but hasn't WoW kept, if not a *thriving* arena scene, at least a decent/competitive/popular one?

I would be very curious indeed if D3 had gone through with their plan to model PvP on a similar track to WoW arenas - or if GGG would pick that up and run with it. The idea of ladder, ranking, titles, perks, cosmetics, and/or gear and buffs you can take with you to PvE as a result of your PvP efforts, wager matches and the like... the list of possibilities goes on and on.

I'm not convinced that the urge to PvP in this game is dead. Or perhaps a more apt metaphor would be that it's a spark that could still yet be kindled into a decent fire with the right coaxing. But at the same time I can't bring myself to criticize GGG for going in the direction Chris expressed: they have a good thing going in PvE. Player numbers and player retention are up as a result of Perandus. There is all kinds of untapped potential in PvPvE. Ride that out and see where it takes us.

dota 6.87 would need to introduce an utterly unplayable meta and league would need to remove heimerdinger cuz that's the only champ i ever play

I dont think getting PvP balance to a respectable level is that hard of a thing to accomplish at the moment considering the amount of knowledge the current PvP community has. There are a lot of great suggestions and easily implemented fixes for some of the more ridiculous things you can do in PvP. I also feel GGG didnt utilize the small amount of time they spent balancing PvP in the best ways and I would like to see more of an effort on their behalf here.

Personally I cant stand MOBAs and ive tried a few. Before POE I was an avid Sc2 player because I like 1v1 PvP not team PvP. From my understanding POE isnt supposed to be a game that appeals to the masses its supposed to be an amazing ARPG like diablo 2 but without some PvP support this part of POE will remain lackluster at best.

At the moment it seems POE is trying to move away from its Hardcore Arpg roots to appeal to a wider customer base and as a result myself and some other long time players are beginning to loose interest in this game. Im finding it no longer challenges me in anyway except for maybe my patience and the challenge of the game is what first attracted me to it and PvP

I think Chris is on point with regard to this.

False.

I in general dont even like MOBAS.

But PVP in ARPGS will never be what diablo 2 was soo..

They tried,they gave pvp a chance and didnt brought people inside neither the money.

So yeah,from a business standpoint,why support such a minority?

As he said,he didnt understand what was more fun in d2 than poe's pvp.And ill agree with himthere is no reason why it wouldnt be a thing in PoE also,but sadly its not,apparently we "all" love more pve than PvP.

Right before i get into this thread,i went onto arena and its sad not seeing anyone,but thats what the game is.

Even when they gave incentive to do them,people didnt.

So to Op,dont know if thats the reason,but i find it reasonable at an extend.

The idea though of pve-pvp races intrigues me.

One idea,Something like 8 paralell rooms and teams striving to get to the end faster than the other team.And maybe,just maybe to the end of the line they would fight for the lulz while a boss in the middle shooting thing all over the place....hehe the sadist in me would do something like this :)

I think a more accurate version of Chris' statement is to say that MOBAs do ARPG PVP better than ARPGs. It's the same style of combat, but specifically designed for PVP. That's because all a MOBA is is an ARPG PVP mode (yes yes, DOTA was a Warcraft mod, but you get the idea). In order for PoE to be able to compete with a MOBA, they'd have to design their MOBA alternative: a HUGE resource sink. Since they've seen again and again a total lack of enthusiasm from the community every time they do sink resources into PvP, there's no reason to justify wasting an entire expansion on a hybrid MOBA mode that probably won't be as good as either a real MOBA or PVE PoE and will likely just confuse/anger players that are more interested in PoE's core gameplay.

Chris' solution makes sense: try to hone in on the competitive multiplayer aspect that drives the popularity of these modes, but do it in a way that is 1) more in line with what the community has demonstrated interest in, 2) more adherent to what players expect from PoE gameplay, and 3) innovative and not competing with games that have been specifically designed around the relevant gameplay loop.

To be honest, I think all the outcry is just people regretting losing what they never wanted. Yes, there was a small minority that regularly engaged with PVP modes and was hoping for more content. I'm sure this news sucks for them. But for the vast majority of us, no one really wanted PVP that badly: it's just that, like most human beings, we dislike negative certainty, and so knowing that we're not going to get more involved PVP modes is disproportionately disheartening.

I look forward to them trying out competitive PVE. If it doesn't go well, they can always go back to the drawing board and try to figure something else out. And maybe that something else is, after all, PVP.

I don't think the vast majority of players come to this game for PvP. Whether or not the ones that want PvP go to MOBAs, I don't know. It's certainly conceivable that that would be the case.

PvP really isn't going to give GGG the best 'bang for their buck' so to speak. It's just not what the community as a whole wants.

If they put a ton of time and effort into it, could it be successful? Maybe, but I kinda doubt it.

If GGG wants to create a competitive 'scene', I think they're far better off relying on races and time challenges. PvP is just too hard to balance when the main focus of the game is PvE.

He doesn't understand the difference between D2s PVP and PoEs?

Lol well its really simple there.

Mechanics really is what ruins PoEs pvp. And these are core mechanics that surely wont be changed so theres nothing you can really do about that.

"

EastonWins wrote:

He doesn't understand the difference between D2s PVP and PoEs?

Lol well its really simple there.

Mechanics really is what ruins PoEs pvp. And these are core mechanics that surely wont be changed so theres nothing you can really do about that.

You imply d2 had better mechanics?

k