SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Just for the record... I still hate the lab and what it's done to character progression. Time and tweeks have not changed that. Giving progress a barrier like the Lab is really bad design. There needs to be an alternative method created for gaining Ascendancies. It can be a hassle. It can be "expensive". But there needs to be an alternative.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Just for the record... I still hate the lab and what it's done to character progression. Time and tweeks have not changed that. Giving progress a barrier like the Lab is really bad design. There needs to be an alternative method created for gaining Ascendancies. It can be a hassle. It can be "expensive". But there needs to be an alternative.

Agreed, GGG has improved the current lab content almost as much as they reasonably can. Adding someway to get back into the lab after a disconnect and making getting the offering of the six endgame trials more predictable are almost all that is left for them to clean up in the lab.

If GGG ever does separate the ascendancy points from the lab it will likely be in a major release where they're making some structural changes to the story or something. Move the ascendancy points someplace where it is part of the main story-line type thing.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Just for the record... I still hate the lab and what it's done to character progression. Time and tweeks have not changed that. Giving progress a barrier like the Lab is really bad design. There needs to be an alternative method created for gaining Ascendancies. It can be a hassle. It can be "expensive". But there needs to be an alternative.

Agreed, GGG has improved the current lab content almost as much as they reasonably can. Adding someway to get back into the lab after a disconnect and making getting the offering of the six endgame trials more predictable are almost all that is left for them to clean up in the lab.

If GGG ever does separate the ascendancy points from the lab it will likely be in a major release where they're making some structural changes to the story or something. Move the ascendancy points someplace where it is part of the main story-line type thing.

If they really want the Labyrinth to reach its full potential, they'll have to randomize it completely.

I know Lab haters object to that idea because it seems like it'll become even more of a pain to do, but consider the fact that the randomization they've already inserted has made the lab that much more fun, because they don't have to balance it around people using poelab to bypass the need to explore.

If the entire Lab were completely randomized, the possibilities would be blown wide open with regards to balance, and that would even increase the potential for paths which bypass the traps that some people hate (and some people love), since, again, they wouldn't need to balance it around people exploiting poelab to minimize the path to the end.

Those who enjoy running it over and over with an identical layout so they can shave seconds off their fastest time would lose out, I acknowledge. But those have explicit rewards, and I think those who are more interested in having an implicitly rewarding experience are far more numerous.

(I also feel that, from the point of view of game design, making a game more implicitly rewarding will always be worth the tradeoff of sacrificing some of its explicit rewards.)

I just don t like having to search those maps ones.
All those layer of rng just to be able to play the uber lab.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Just for the record... I still hate the lab and what it's done to character progression. Time and tweeks have not changed that. Giving progress a barrier like the Lab is really bad design. There needs to be an alternative method created for gaining Ascendancies. It can be a hassle. It can be "expensive". But there needs to be an alternative.

Agreed, GGG has improved the current lab content almost as much as they reasonably can. Adding someway to get back into the lab after a disconnect and making getting the offering of the six endgame trials more predictable are almost all that is left for them to clean up in the lab.

If GGG ever does separate the ascendancy points from the lab it will likely be in a major release where they're making some structural changes to the story or something. Move the ascendancy points someplace where it is part of the main story-line type thing.

If they really want the Labyrinth to reach its full potential, they'll have to randomize it completely.

I know Lab haters object to that idea because it seems like it'll become even more of a pain to do, but consider the fact that the randomization they've already inserted has made the lab that much more fun, because they don't have to balance it around people using poelab to bypass the need to explore.

If the entire Lab were completely randomized, the possibilities would be blown wide open with regards to balance, and that would even increase the potential for paths which bypass the traps that some people hate (and some people love), since, again, they wouldn't need to balance it around people exploiting poelab to minimize the path to the end.

Those who enjoy running it over and over with an identical layout so they can shave seconds off their fastest time would lose out, I acknowledge. But those have explicit rewards, and I think those who are more interested in having an implicitly rewarding experience are far more numerous.

(I also feel that, from the point of view of game design, making a game more implicitly rewarding will always be worth the tradeoff of sacrificing some of its explicit rewards.)

Actually Gibbousmoon, I agree with you that randomizing the Labyrinth would make it more interesting and probably even more palatable for me. For example, it would make it more similar to the great game play that is in the rest of PoE. (Lab would still have the squishy control problem.) I just wouldn't guess that GGG is interested in allocating significantly more resources into it. It would seem to be lower potential return on investment with a higher risk than plowing ahead with new content like Delve and the like and just leaving basic lab like it is for those that do like it.

Today's announcement game me another idea.

Let Izaro be able to "conquer" maps in atlas, after all as an emperor he wants to expand his empire (for the "LORE" aspect). At first he is able to conquer white maps only, then yellow then red and after a while even guardian maps and other t16 (at the moment vaal temple and elder orb map you've chosen). When you clear all white maps and have killed him too in one (or more) of them and unlocked a yellow map then he tries to conquer yellow maps only. Once you unlock all yellow maps and killed him in one of those, when you unlock a red map he tries and has a chance to appear in red maps. Same procedure here too and the same for t16.

As you've guessed, white maps award the first 2 points equivalent to normal lab, yellow the 2 of cruel, red another 2 from the merci, and t16 the last 2 from uber lab. To get those ascendancies you need to run the map Izaro is currently occupying and put a divine vessel inside the map device too, similar to how you gain pantheon secondary powers. Since each category of map is tied to each lab difficulty a player that has done merci lab normally cant gain the last two points from white maps, but he can gain them from the alternative t16 Izaro conquered map.

Izaro affects the map (not in the atlas) he conquered in a similar way elder and shaper does, but he can only have 1 map under his control and it doesnt affect elder/shaper influence the map has. The map on the atlas just shows like the new master icons on atlas from today's post but Izaro/labyrinth themed.

The map itself doesn't change layout/tileset but there are some changes inside it to show Izaro's control. First of all, NO TRAPS inside the map with one exception, the boss room, which in a way must transform to something very similar to current Izaro's last rooms, or like the bossroom in Plaza map. In other words the bossroom is as deadly as the normal Izaro rooms in each difficulty. The music of the map changes to that of the labyrinths. The environment inside the map maybe changes a bit to feel like Izaro's place. And lastly there are some of the typical monsters from labyrinths inside the map.

Ofcourse there are no treasure chests and treasure keys, and no enchantment altar. Izaro drops loot (maps included) as the normal boss of the map he "conquered" but not any specific boss unique (like those from the guardians etc). In white maps there is 25% chance to drop an offering, 50% for yellow, 75% for red, and 100% for any t16 map. As said above using a divine vessel will also grant you the ascendancy points tied to each map tier, and doing so again after you gained them gives you the option to change your ascendancy choice.

After he conquered every type of map mentioned above (white,yellow,red,t16) and the player killed him and gained the ascendancy points in each tier, he then appears randomly to any map, just like the new masters do, with a chance to reappear if you killed him in another map again just like the new masters do. (he is not a master, but this can open new opportunities for a new master or unlock mods for the new crafting system).

If the player starts a new character and reaches maps, Izaro resets and starts again the same procedure (first appearing in white maps, then yellow, reds, and lastly t16) so that the new character can also gain the ascendancy points if he hasnt done so yet. This procedure applies for every character even if he has gained the points from normal lab progression. So if a player has done normal lab and nothing else, and reaches maps, Izaro appears only in white maps and still needs all white maps to be unlocked/completed/cleared whatever and a yellow to be unlocked for him to have a chance to appear in it.

The current lab and ascendancy system of course remains in place. So a player can choose the much easier way to gain the points from the current system (unless ssf for uber lab cause of trials), though he has to tolerate the way different gameplay, or choose to ascend way way later (at minimum in 68lvl area vs 33 making the first izaro fight equivalent to that of merciless lab,, min 73lvl area v 55 making 2nd izaro almost as hard as uber lab, min 78lvl area vs 68 making 3rd izaro harder than uber lab, 83lvl area vs 75lvl area making the final izaro fight as hard as he can get) but not having to do trials and of any kind or play a different game inside poe.


-Not sure if i forgot some detail/clarification i wanted to add, ill update if that's the case.

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Regulator wrote:

Today's announcement game me another idea.

Let Izaro be able to "conquer" maps in atlas, after all as an emperor he wants to expand his empire (for the "LORE" aspect). At first he is able to conquer white maps only, then yellow then red and after a while even guardian maps and other t16 (at the moment vaal temple and elder orb map you've chosen). When you clear all white maps and have killed him too in one (or more) of them and unlocked a yellow map then he tries to conquer yellow maps only. Once you unlock all yellow maps and killed him in one of those, when you unlock a red map he tries and has a chance to appear in red maps. Same procedure here too and the same for t16.

As you've guessed, white maps award the first 2 points equivalent to normal lab, yellow the 2 of cruel, red another 2 from the merci, and t16 the last 2 from uber lab. To get those ascendancies you need to run the map Izaro is currently occupying and put a divine vessel inside the map device too, similar to how you gain pantheon secondary powers. Since each category of map is tied to each lab difficulty a player that has done merci lab normally cant gain the last two points from white maps, but he can gain them from the alternative t16 Izaro conquered map.

The current lab and ascendancy system of course remains in place. So a player can choose the much easier way to gain the points from the current system (unless ssf for uber lab cause of trials), though he has to tolerate the way different gameplay, or choose to ascend way way later (at minimum in 68lvl area vs 33 making the first izaro fight equivalent to that of merciless lab,, min 73lvl area v 55 making 2nd izaro almost as hard as uber lab, min 78lvl area vs 68 making 3rd izaro harder than uber lab, 83lvl area vs 75lvl area making the final izaro fight as hard as he can get) but not having to do trials and of any kind or play a different game inside poe.


-Not sure if i forgot some detail/clarification i wanted to add, ill update if that's the case.

Too complicated. Besides, in Delve I killed Uber Elder about 15 times, but still not finished all the "white" and "yellow" maps. Reason is simple, while I had character suitable for "white" maps, some of them just didn't drop, as well as yellow maps, when my char was on "yellow" level. Soon I was on "red" level and just didn't want to bother with some low tier maps. Currently I have "unfinished" about 4 or 5 white maps and 1 yellow and don't want to fiddle with them. Of course, I could use Zanas "elder" mode on them but... why even bother, and waste 60-75c?

There is much easier way. If somebody really hates lab so much, he is unable to do it even on "normal" and "cruel" difficulty, both ascendencies should be "given" to him automaticly after killing Kitava. Merciless level could be bind with all yellow Elder guardians and "Uber" with all Shaper guardians. Simple and easy. If somebody is capable do kill Mino or Chimera without last 2 ascendancy points, while he is unable to finish Uber lab, let him have all points after he proves himself with endgame content.

So the Betrayal content is fantastic, and yet another step away from the horrible lab and its absurd mechanics (which have NOTHING to do with the rest of the content). When is GGG going to wake up and address this issue? Every league, every character, lab runs... garbage content and mechanics that don't have anything to do with the rest of the game. GGG seems either oblivious or in denial regarding the lab and how people are simply sick of it.

GGG: "Here's a new league with great content! Oh, and to really enjoy it at end-game, you have to run the lab four times, jump around traps and puzzles and deal with mechanics that have nothing to do with any other content in the game! Have fun!"

'Tis a special kind of stupid.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Zaludoz wrote:

I think I may give PoE another chance on the PS4... MAYBE a controller will make a difference. (I really hate point-click movement interfaces when precision control is required, IE in the Labyrinth, but such precision isn't required in most games with point-click interfaces, that I have enjoyed)

The method of control still doesn't change the basic design flaw of the Labyrinth existing as a mini-game with its own rules compared to the main game, and feeling more like a piece of fan-fiction based on PoE.

I'll likely end up deleting it off my PS4 harddrive for space to update Warframe or something, but we'll see.

I hope that PS4 works out! Let us know how it goes.

As an update: The PS4 controls are not crisp "move when you say to move" "stop when you stay to stop" controls. They are some sort of frankenstein simulated mouse input, using PoE's normal pathfinding - which is painful for the Labyrinth, though less so than with a keyboard/mouse.

So far, playing very casually, and playing more Warframe than PoE, I've just passed Maligaro in his guts map, playing a Flame Totem marauder, SSF - need more resists and proper slots/colors to really make use of the planned build, but now we don't even have Vorici anymore *sigh*.

Crafted a couple staunching health potions, but really putting off the Labyrinth until maps. (completed all the silly trials up to this point, so I could if I wanted to)

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Zaludoz wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Zaludoz wrote:

I think I may give PoE another chance on the PS4... MAYBE a controller will make a difference. (I really hate point-click movement interfaces when precision control is required, IE in the Labyrinth, but such precision isn't required in most games with point-click interfaces, that I have enjoyed)

The method of control still doesn't change the basic design flaw of the Labyrinth existing as a mini-game with its own rules compared to the main game, and feeling more like a piece of fan-fiction based on PoE.

I'll likely end up deleting it off my PS4 harddrive for space to update Warframe or something, but we'll see.

I hope that PS4 works out! Let us know how it goes.

As an update: The PS4 controls are not crisp "move when you say to move" "stop when you stay to stop" controls. They are some sort of frankenstein simulated mouse input, using PoE's normal pathfinding - which is painful for the Labyrinth, though less so than with a keyboard/mouse.

So far, playing very casually, and playing more Warframe than PoE, I've just passed Maligaro in his guts map, playing a Flame Totem marauder, SSF - need more resists and proper slots/colors to really make use of the planned build, but now we don't even have Vorici anymore *sigh*.

Crafted a couple staunching health potions, but really putting off the Labyrinth until maps. (completed all the silly trials up to this point, so I could if I wanted to)

Nice necro, bro.