SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Anyhow, as I said to goetzjam, we shall see. It will be interesting to watch playthroughs on Youtube and hear what people have to say about the relative advantages/disadvantages to direct/indirect control schemes.

@raics I'll buy you one if you buy me one. :P

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

We should race, you with a controller in the lab and me with my keyboard and mouse, same skills, same everything (hopefully we get same layout)


You are completely ignoring some of the most important aspects of player control in this game, which includes the use of movement abilities, flask, ect.


If our test was simply who can play the literal game of frogger better with only joystick and mouse, perhaps your arguement would have merit, but that isn't what we are comparing it to, we are comparing the lab, which is in a game call path of exile that has other factors you are completely ignoring.

Well, the proof is in the pudding. Let's see how well it controls on Xbone.

And yeah, you're right, cheesing past the traps with movement skills might negate the advantage of a direct control scheme, but I think we were talking about precision of movement control, not a way to render that precision irrelevant with lightning warp et al. I.e., a control scheme that people enjoy using more while maneuvering around traps.

(Incidentally, I am positive that there is a 12-year-old boy out there who can kick my ass in any FPS in existence using his 1337 gamepad skills, even if I am using m+k. It ultimately IS a matter of taste, even if the general consensus is that one control scheme is more precise than another.)

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goetzjam wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

We should race, you with a controller in the lab and me with my keyboard and mouse, same skills, same everything (hopefully we get same layout)


You are completely ignoring some of the most important aspects of player control in this game, which includes the use of movement abilities, flask, ect.


If our test was simply who can play the literal game of frogger better with only joystick and mouse, perhaps your arguement would have merit, but that isn't what we are comparing it to, we are comparing the lab, which is in a game call path of exile that has other factors you are completely ignoring.

Well, the proof is in the pudding. Let's see how well it controls on Xbone.

And yeah, you're right, cheesing past the traps with movement skills might negate the advantage of a direct control scheme, but I think we were talking about precision of movement control, not a way to render that precision irrelevant with lightning warp et al. I.e., a control scheme that people enjoy using more while maneuvering around traps.

(Incidentally, I am positive that there is a 12-year-old boy out there who can kick my ass in any FPS in existence using his 1337 gamepad skills, even if I am using m+k. It ultimately IS a matter of taste, even if the general consensus is that one control scheme is more precise than another.)

We shall see, because you either don't have a steam controller or don't want to do the test.


We are talking about the lab and how you claimed a controller is better designed for the lab then keyboard and mouse. That is what we are disagreeing with, if you want to apply this to some other irrelevant arguement just for the sake of saying well in this defined scope that isn't relevant to the discussion at hand I'm technically right, quite frankly who cares is you are if it doesn't apply to this.


In terms of FPS, they are different at least back in the day i can recall auto aim style tools that snap to something making precision style controls not as important. But here we are going off topic, in terms of keyboard and mouse vs controller, I will take my keyboard and mouse ANYDAY over a controller for a challenge like the lab. With regular gameplay of this game it shouldn't matter as much.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

This argument is pointless and boring, because the Xbone game isn't out yet. You can make comparisons once it is.

I do have a steam controller, though I believe that is moot: Are you aware of a way to configure PoE to give direct ("non-point-and-click," if you prefer) character control to it?

I am not. And I doubt GGG will add actual gamepad support to the PC game ever.

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goetzjam wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

This argument is pointless and boring, because the Xbone game isn't out yet. You can make comparisons once it is.

I do have a steam controller, though I believe that is moot: Are you aware of a way to configure PoE to give direct ("non-point-and-click," if you prefer) character control to it?

I am not. And I doubt GGG will add actual gamepad support to the PC game ever.

Ok will do.


I don't know how to configure it perfectly, but you can use the joystick most likely in a similar fashion as your console version if I had to guess with proper configuration.


In terms of actual gamepad support, I see no reason why they wouldn't create an xbox version that also works on windows 10 machines thru that store. I can imagine some people would be interested in playing on their PC, but playing with people on the xbox realm and theres no reason why that shouldn't be possible IMO.

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Regulator wrote:

Though Chris mentioned lab on some of those interviews he didnt say something related to ascendancy points and what will happen with them in the 10act expansion. He talked a minute or two how lab is hated by some and loved by others and how they went for a more classical approach for Fall of Oriath while still experimenting though in a much smaller degree than the labyrinth and its different design.

What i can get out of this is they know the drastic change to gameplay lab offered while also gating ascendancy points was too controversial and divisive. What strikes me odd is why after so much time he choose to mention lab again, and its even weirder that he did so in their new expansion realease of all places.

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We wanted to add this labyrinth to the game...and it's just completely orthogonal to the rest of the game content. Some of the players said I don't want to play this [except I f!ck*ng have to if I want to get my ascendancy points] some of the players absolutely loved it

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Regulator wrote:

Anyway im not at all optimistic regarding our matter, there is a saying in my country which roughly translates to : "where you hear there are lots of cherries you should bring/keep a small basket"

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goetzjam wrote:

What some people don't realize is that in one of the videos about the next expansion Chris talks about the lab some more, re-instating the idea that they are OK with content that doesn't make everyone equally as happy. If anything this is just further indication that GGG isn't going to make AC points available outside the lab, if not 3.0, then likely ever.

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"We’re really trying to make the second half of the game feel both reminiscent and fresh. And we’re trying to make it so that you play Act 1-10 because they’re really fun, not just to get to Maps (end game content)."

It meant a lot to me as a gamer to hear straight from the devs that they just want me to have fun playing their game.

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ShaUrley wrote:

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"We’re really trying to make the second half of the game feel both reminiscent and fresh. And we’re trying to make it so that you play Act 1-10 because they’re really fun, not just to get to Maps (end game content)."

It meant a lot to me as a gamer to hear straight from the devs that they just want me to have fun playing their game.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

@goetzjam Turtledove's point is that direct control of your player is superior to point-and-click for intricate piloting. I expect the Labyrinth will be considerably more fun to play on Xbone, for the same reason FPSs are considerably more fun to play on PC (imo) than on consoles. You can disagree with that point, because it is an opinion, but I think you would find yourself in a small minority in that case, just like people who prefer console-style FPS controls are in a small minority

Point and click IS direct control at the most extreme levels, you can have far more accuracy on moving your character with keyboard and mouse then you EVER could have with a controller.

As I said, you are necessarily going to hold a minority opinion there (and that's fine; you are allowed to have your own opinion about anything you want). As for relative directness, calling point-and-click control indirect is not a controversial statement. On the contrary it's a commonly accepted concept. This is why:

Mouse
1. Move your pointer to the left of your character.
2. Click.
3. Your character moves left.
4. Move your pointer to the right of your character.
5. Click.
6. Your character moves right.

Joystick
1. Press left.
2. Your character moves left.
3. Press right.
4. Your character moves right.

People refer to the latter as "direct" control because the movements of your character correspond directly to the movements of your controller. People refer to the former as "indirect" because you are kind of telling your character where to go, and then he goes there.

Now for the subjective part: I (and I daresay most people) believe that piloting with the latter method is more precise because the potential for misclicking is nil. Whether or not you have additional leeway for making mistakes before your frog splatters on the pavement is inconsequential to that fact.

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Telzen wrote:

1. Put cursor over character
2. Hold down button
3. Move your mouse in a direction
4. You now have direction control over your character