Ascendacy Classes looks like a step backwards

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NotRegret wrote:

Let's use your example of a summoner duelist. If you insisted on doing this, you could go Null's Inclination. In this way you can get summon support in the form of dex and his offensive nodes will actually help a bit and you still have all the generic defense and utility nodes available. The jewels, gear, gems and the like can all support summons in some way or another or some other aspect of the character. Each aspect of character building can support it and you get several choices about what to do. What can ascendancy give the build...well there's Inspirational umm Fortify...that's it I guess. Did we even make choices or did we just pick the only points that are relevant?

Since you're looking at the Champion ascendancy, you could take Conqueror and Worthy Foe instead of Fortitude and use Rallying Cry to grant your minions additional damage, plus the additional damage the enemies take due to being taunted.

Maybe even something could be done with the additional stun chance granted by Worthy Foe.
I haven't done much with stun, so I don't know if it would work but maybe toss in a Warlord's Mark for extra stun chance and have your minions get some stuns in?

It's looking more and more like none of this is going to matter. The game looks to becoming so easy that no matter what you do, you'll succeed. We really don't know, but unless there's changes that increase difficulty, these ascendancy classes are just bonuses where none are really needed.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

It's looking more and more like none of this is going to matter. The game looks to becoming so easy that no matter what you do, you'll succeed. We really don't know, but unless there's changes that increase difficulty, these ascendancy classes are just bonuses where none are really needed.

Well, I am a big believer in metrics of success, meaning that a build which is capable of more loot/hour, or XP/hour, or w/e is more successful than another build capable of the same content. In that sense there will always be competition and it will always matter.

However, I see what you're saying as well, and I don't think it's a bad thing to have a certain degree of pass/fail binary measurements for success, instead of relying exclusively on sliding scales. They can serve two purposes: making the theorycrafting of a power-farming more difficult than simply DPS maximization (via survivability checks), and they can serve as a mercy to poorly optimized builds to prevent them from grinding content they cannot speedrun well (DPS checks).

The only thing that would make me mad is if GGG dumbed poe down like Blizzard dumbed down d3.

OP, this is probably the best thing to happen to this game since it went live.

Right now Scion is the best class for pretty much anything you want to do and jewel sockets put the nail in the coffin. Now, we see that choosing a specific class gets you some serious benefits vs picking Scion. This could not have been done any smoother too.

Your rigid and narrow comment is kind-of surprising mainly because you can make some really interesting choices that were mediocre before. I see that you're probably looking at these classes and seeing that there are only a finite number of choices to pick from node wise, therefore its narrow but i think you need to get a little more creative with your thought patterns here.

My mind races with the amount of messed up builds i can now create and make viable into high level maps. Theres more fun to be had with these new classes than ever before. Likely the best patch the games going to drop. HYPU

I dont understand why people get upset over stuff they havent even tried, ever been stuck in a game you invested allot of time and money into only to find no more updates will happen or they happen so seldom you get bored real fast?

I for one welcome changes and new exciting ways to play different classes, some ways I hope will allow me to continue to play my own style and make them stronger. Just my 2 cents

Sound like the one who keep saying "Ascendancy classes kill build diversity" is the one who only care about the build(s) he/she play.

If you are really serious on being the strongest, go for it. No one will stop you to pick the "strongest" classes on your "strongest" build. But you know what, no matter how the content be changed, there is one and only one way to be the strongest. Ascendancy classes do nothing on changing this rule. What it just does is to make you consider more stuff before choosing your "strongest" class.

If you think "crit node on Assassin is so damn OP that make everyone pick him on crit build" or "that Necromancer is the best class on summoner limit the play style of being a summoner". I will say you are wrong in two aspects.

1. Like what I have typed above, nothing changes if you are the min/maxers. Before Ascendancy, you will pick witch for summoner as it's the most suitable class and the strongest for being a summoner. Now, you will still pick Necromancer for summoner since it's still the strongest. What only changes is the class name you pick. It is changed from "Witch" to "Witch/Necromancer".

2. There are a lot of people like experimenting builds, trying some builds that no one try/everyone think they are weak, and hate being min/maxers. For those players, introducing Ascendancy classes is great. Now, trying different classes on a similar build is pointless, as the differences between the classes are only starting location and visual effect (maybe quest rewards, but who care?). After introducing Ascendancy classes, we now have a better incentive to pick different classes on a similar build. Therefore, even for some special build like summoners, there will be more people using class other than witch to play with. How we call this phenomenon in English? We call it "diversity".

If Ascendancy classes kill diversity, starting location of passive tree should kill diversity too, since they both have the same function on "making difference". If Ascendancy classes is making PoE step backwards, should we make all classes start on the same location to make PoE step forwards? You can now pick any classes for any builds and cheat yourself that diversity is improved.

Like most of the game, change make players feel uncomfortable, so many people will again change. No matter the change is nerfing/buff a skill, or introducing difference between classes. The only difference is the number of complainers. Introducing Ascendancy classes is a huge change, followed with huge uncomfortableness and opportunity. I think the direction of Ascendancy classes are great so far. Of course, imbalance does exist between classes, but it also exists between skills too. As long as the direction is right, the only things leave behind is just numbers, which are easy to be modified, but hard to be perfect. It needs time.

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Varkorium wrote:

My personal worry for the ascendancy classes, is that every Melee Marauder build I make that uses Fortify, is now better played as a Duelist as it gives me a free gem slot! I don't like that.

I will refrain from making too many assumption's though, until Ascendancy actually hit's.

All I want is to be able to carry on enjoying my Marauder, without feeling like I am at a disadvantage by not picking duelist. Finger's crossed! :P

This. I won't reroll my cyclone marauder into a duelist because this actually suck and ggg aim to improve the whole class giving a permanent buff like fortify nor restyling the passive points path of duelist area.

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鬼殺し wrote:

So to sum up:

a) min/maxers will just get more clarity regarding the straight lines to success, since some Ascendancy classes are just STUPIDLY strong even at a glance;
b) creative types will be challenged to see how far they can push each Ascendancy, and most of them are quite flexible;

and

c) unless GGG significantly increase the difficulty of the core game responding to Ascendancy, everything you could do before you'll still be able to do after, unrelated nerfs notwithstanding (nice not knowing you, Bladefall).

So the only people who should feel 'railroaded' are those that should always have felt railroaded, but don't.

As one of the more...irrationally creative forum users, I am terribly excited about the Ascendancy classes many others have already written off. Challenge Accepted!

Nicely put

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NotRegret wrote:

Classes have always have identies which are based on node proximity and stat requirments. You can break these by investing in more travel nodes or finding ways to get attributes outside your class. These come at the cost of something but what gives the depth is exactly that you can do any combination of things (some of course being more costly than others)

Let's use your example of a summoner duelist. If you insisted on doing this, you could go Null's Inclination. In this way you can get summon support in the form of dex and his offensive nodes will actually help a bit and you still have all the generic defense and utility nodes available. The jewels, gear, gems and the like can all support summons in some way or another or some other aspect of the character. Each aspect of character building can support it and you get several choices about what to do. What can ascendancy give the build...well there's Inspirational umm Fortify...that's it I guess. Did we even make choices or did we just pick the only points that are relevant?

Adding more content does not necessarily increase build diversity, because the new content is going to decide the flow of your decision making. If you want to make a blade vortex character using a witch there's justification for it, maybe you want to travel to the templar area for aura support or something. Although you aren't going to get much support from ascendancy for your plan...maybe if you go double curse or pure ES. But you'd get a lot more support from other classes

Builds are based on what is supported. There is a reason d3 had very few melee wizards, it wasn't that the build was restricted by the game but there wasn't exactly a lot supporting it either.

I know ascension trees are not the totality of the characters but it's a step in the wrong direction: a major aspect of character building being rigid and narrow.

I hate repeating myself, but again, you clearly lack the creativity to see how a summoner duelist could work in ascendancy (cause right now it doesnt work anyway, null's while nicely done doesnt work).

Slayer obviously is not a good choice at all (or at least i havent figured out), but lets look at the other two classes shall we?

Ill start with the Gladiator : Use whatever weapon you want (sword and shield for extra synergy is the best option here) but bows (Null's) can work too, summon zombies and summon skeletons, you pick up Gratuitius Violence, you link bloodlust to your minions, enjoy 60% more damage from your minions. You could continue with Blood in The Eyes to get some extra utility yourself regarding bleeding or choose either way of the Block Path and enjoy some defences. Alternatevely you could use dominatiing blow.

Lets go to Champion now : Same gear and gem setup as above, you get Inspirational and enjoy its bonuses without any restriction (for better results grab some aura specific nodes too), Fortitude is an obvious choice and needs no further explanation, but even Worthy Foe could work, support your minions with stun gem and you probably stunlock everything except hard boses

As you can see its obviously not as effective or efficient as a templar/witch/scion summoner, since duelist has 0 minion nodes in his near proximity, but at least there are some synergies with the ascendancy classes that werent there before, and thus duelist is a much more competent summoner than what he is now. You need imagination and out-of-the-box thinking to make such niche builds work, cause they obviously CANT function following the common way. You need to see the points and not just disregard what is said cause summoner duelist will still be/feel subpar to any regular summoner build.