Talisman beating Torment as most boring league !

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nynyny wrote:

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raics wrote:

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nynyny wrote:

As soon as you look at something like 'profits' you base your analysis on facts. You dont have to estimate the profits, you dont have to guess. You take data and analyze it without an opinion or bias interfering. Which is the exact opposite of what 'weighing' does. Its affected by human error. That doesnt make the procedure useless, it simply doesnt do what you want it to do (because its impossible).

Look, man, I've really tried to take this discussion seriously, I truly have. And I love a good argument as much as the next guy, well, probably more, but...

First you dismiss solid figures like player retention as irrelevant and then you pull off that income stunt. Are you even aware how many perfectly irrelevant factors is that data contaminated with? If you try to compensate for all of them you won't get facts anymore, you'll get bird droppings.

It is getting absolutely ridiculous, you will have to pull off something really solid if you want to continue this.

Is this supposed to make me laugh? How exactly is player retention a solid figure?

League A goes from January to March
League B goes from April to June

Finals in the US and EU are in February (for the sake of argument). League A now loses its players rather quickly because they are focusing on their studies. League B however doesnt have that problem, because people arent abandoning the league to do something else. Doesnt that mean that it was superior? Or did the league itself have literally nothing to do with players leaving early this time?

The more variables you throw into the pot the higher the probability that youre right in assuming something. That still doesnt make it objective.

I get it, youre too incompetent to understand that superiority and inferiority cant objectively be proven unless you put them in relation to something, like profits. Just saying that A is better than B because of subjective figures is pants on head retarded. I doubt that you even understand what objectivity is at this point.

There isnt a point in continuing this.

Time of the year also influences income as seasonal expenses pile up and you have less free cash to spend on your game. It also depends on supporter pack and mtx releases, state of the game, playerbase structure, hell, even subtleties like global economy. You're covering almost three years time here, the number is near worthless.

But I agree. Good discussion is a thing to enjoy but this one just doesn't go anywhere.

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Cataca wrote:

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nynyny wrote:

it seems that I am too stupid to understand how Beyond bosses are objectively superior to a 20% speed buff.

mhm

So you cant? At least you acknowledge it.

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nynyny wrote:

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Cataca wrote:

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nynyny wrote:

it seems that I am too stupid to understand how Beyond bosses are objectively superior to a 20% speed buff.

mhm

So you cant? At least you acknowledge it.

Risk/Reward, complexity, challange. All of those are superior in Beyond compared to "mobs move slightly faster".

If you take Onslaught league and Poe at the time of its deployment, ripped out the onlsaught modifier and exchanged it with the beyond league mechanics, you'd get a superior more complex league.

And beyond was a steaming pile of shit. Thats how bad onlsaught was.
Hell, it has now become a map mod that i roll when i want easy free quantity.

But i am sure you will say thats all very subjective, and i am wrong because, subjective.
There is a reason people can grade figure skating or essays without the world spontaniously combusting.
Which is why i wont partake in this discussion. Debunk arguments like a grown up or dont start discussions. (And "all you say is subjective, so i can ignore everything you say while using my own subjective arguments" is not.valid.)

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Cataca wrote:

Risk/Reward, complexity, challange. All of those are superior in Beyond compared to "mobs move slightly faster".

Lets go with this sentence. CBA reading the rest.

Why is complexity objectively superior to simplicity?
Why is a bigger challenge objectively superior to the opposite?
Why is higher Risk/Reward objectively superior to lower levels?

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nynyny wrote:

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Cataca wrote:

Risk/Reward, complexity, challange. All of those are superior in Beyond compared to "mobs move slightly faster".

Lets go with this sentence. CBA reading the rest.

Why is complexity objectively superior to simplicity?
Why is a bigger challenge objectively superior to the opposite?
Why is higher Risk/Reward objectively superior to lower levels?

Spoiler

Independent from the stuff above because its not about objectiviy but the process of rating difficulty:

-Onslaught added 20% speed to everything and it was impossible to avoid
-Beyond added Beyond mobs that you were able to avoid
>why is Beyond harder when I get the option to avoid what makes everything harder?

-Onslaught forced you to roll these sort of maps to get a return
-Beyond let you run blue/regaled pack size Courtyards and still threw maps at you
>why is Beyond harder when youre not forced to run hard maps?

Also keep in mind that people played PoE for ages by the time Beyond was released. People therefore were better at the game because of being more experienced. So did Beyond really serve as a bigger challenge? If so, how do you prove it?

Why is a backflip objectively superior to jumping in place?

Which is why i am going back to the original quote and leave it at that.

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it seems that I am too stupid to understand how Beyond bosses are objectively superior to a 20% speed buff.

mhm

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Cataca wrote:

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nynyny wrote:

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Cataca wrote:

Risk/Reward, complexity, challange. All of those are superior in Beyond compared to "mobs move slightly faster".

Lets go with this sentence. CBA reading the rest.

Why is complexity objectively superior to simplicity?
Why is a bigger challenge objectively superior to the opposite?
Why is higher Risk/Reward objectively superior to lower levels?

Spoiler

Independent from the stuff above because its not about objectiviy but the process of rating difficulty:

-Onslaught added 20% speed to everything and it was impossible to avoid
-Beyond added Beyond mobs that you were able to avoid
>why is Beyond harder when I get the option to avoid what makes everything harder?

-Onslaught forced you to roll these sort of maps to get a return
-Beyond let you run blue/regaled pack size Courtyards and still threw maps at you
>why is Beyond harder when youre not forced to run hard maps?

Also keep in mind that people played PoE for ages by the time Beyond was released. People therefore were better at the game because of being more experienced. So did Beyond really serve as a bigger challenge? If so, how do you prove it?

Why is a backflip objectively superior to jumping in place?

It isnt unless you put it into relation to something.

I ask 2 people: Do you prefer blue or red?
Both say that they prefer blue. Does that mean that blue is the superior color? No it doesnt because colors cant be superior. Its up to everyone's subjective opinion to decide which color they like most.

However, if I am company who wants to sell t-shirts then this data shows me that blue is in fact superior because more people will buy blue t-shirts. Superiority can only be judged if its in relation to something.

Is League A superior to League B? No it isnt. League B however made GGG more money than League A, which means that from an economic standpoint its superior to them because they have evidence that it brought in more cash, which is the point of their business. Again, seeing it in relation so an objective, and actually existing figure.

And thats what you fail to do: putting stuff into relation. You simply say that A is superior to B. Why? Because it has a league exclusive mechanic that is more appealing to you. Thats subjective. Or because the league had more exclusive unique items. But why are 50 unique items superior to 4 unique items? Because its more? Who says that the 4 unique items werent so mechanically deep that they didnt add more to the core game than the 50 did?

Every single one of these categories is subjective. A back-flip isnt superior to standing still, unless you see it in relation to passing a test or impressing a person. Two activities arent superior or inferior on their own. They are just two activities.

I... actually like Talisman. It's probably my second favorite League after Nemesis. (Though I never played Beyond, Warbands, or Tempest, and had I, Beyond would probably have been my second favorite.)

I would take onslaught over talisman any day. Way more build diversity, actual items that were kick ass and you were excited to buy or see one drop.

The game was still newish and mechanics were still being discovered. The fact that monsters just moved faster and attacked faster was actually terrifying for the state of the game because people werent as experienced as they are today. People actually loved onslaught. Alot of people that claim they dont just read about it on a wiki and think it wasnt a good time in PoE history.

I would like to contribute to the discussion with my own thoughts but... is this really an important discussion. We do not have to put the leagues into order. Where is the point of that?

I like Talisman actually. Beyond sucked the most