List your AH fears

"

Fluffy_Puppies wrote:

As always you are way out of your intellectual league.

Feel free to back up that claim, since most of the things you listed are GREAT for players already established in the trading market and a total death sentence for any player wanting to get into it without any established value.

Which makes you an egoist?

I get it though, short therm thinking coupled with a lack of empathy beyond the scope of your own play experience.

Unlike you, GGG has to actually account for all of the player-base when implementing a change like this.
They don't get to stop their thought pattern after "is this great for ME?".

And then argument that notion with a bunch of things that are extremely detrimental to new players and make it sound like they are positive changes.(hench = le chuckle)

/tips hat

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

Which makes you an egoist?

I get it though, short term thinking coupled with a lack of empathy beyond the scope of your own p̶l̶a̶y̶ experience.

This is projection to a T. I am serious, this sums up your entire persona on the PoE forums to an uncanny degree.

Anyway I'll be happy to explain it to you. Not for your benefit mind you, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this thread. I mean it has always been fun destroying your arguments, but you have never been able to recognize when someone has done so.


Increased ease of transactions - As of now we have Poe.trade, the notice board, and the chaos of trade chat channels. Anyone trying to get a good deal has to wade through all these different channels, which is both time consuming and unenjoyable. I have personally seen someone trying to sell fusings for ex 80:1 in trade chat one, while another person was trying to buy fusings 77:1 ex on the noticeboard. Clearly neither person was aware of the other. having a unified place to conduct trade would eliminate this problem and be beneficial to everyone.

Higher volume of trades - More buyers and sellers, faster trades, more competition, and more options. It would be nice to finally be able to sell the over 2,000 chroms I have picked up while playing the game, and it would be nice to know I am getting the best deal when buying a rare or unique item. This holds true to every single player, so again it is beneficial to everyone.

Less time spent trying to trade - Does this need explaining? Anyone who is not a flipper doesn't want to spend time trading. Less time trading means more time mapping, atziri farming, or MFing etc etc. Anyone who plays the game for fun should be in favor of needing less time to complete a trade.

Greater market efficiency - I can touch on this, but you will really need to educate yourself to get a full understanding. I would suggest A Random Walk Down Wall Street to get a run down of efficient market hypothesis (EMH). Unlike our modern real world stock markets the PoE market is not efficient at all.

Information is obscured and separated due to the different means of trade and even the separation of trade chat channels. There is no information available for what people had previously bought an expensive item for and no information on if that item is trending up or down in price. There is also no one place to see all of the currency changers and the rates they are asking for.

Flippers, speculators, and scammers thrive in this environment. they use their relatively superior information to take advantage of people with inferior information. The more efficient a market is the less information discrepancy there is between the different people taking part in that market. In a perfectly efficient market prices would instantly reflect the economic reality for example.

This one is not arguable. There is decades of research on this subject and if you disagree it means you are ignorant, which I happen to believe you are. If i had to guess I would bet on you being a high schooler or recent college student.

Trades can be completed while offline - Again does this need to be explained? It is not fun for anyone to find a seller on poe.trade that has the only rare a player needs and see he is offline. What if that item is needed for a build to function? As it is the seller is stuck with a rare he doesn't need and the buyer is stuck unable to continue his character.

Or in another case, selling a little used currency. Good luck selling blessed orbs without spending a good amount of time sitting in a noticeboard party and wading through trade chat channels with only scammer flipper rates being offered. Your options are to either waste a lot of time, or accept a ~25-50% premium from a currency trading flipper.

In both cases being able to complete trades offline fixes the problem and is beneficial to everyone.

AH without other ways to trade would be nice.. :D

Then everybody can enjoy 100 chaos Wanderlusts, Redbeaks, Abberath's Horn's and +1 wands/daggers.

When i still used D3's AH, in the end i was earning millions farming level 1-15 HC gear and selling them to flippers.
I even purchased blue items from vendors with good 2 stats for 35000 and then selled then for 500000-5000000(and they sold like cookies) and there was no way that anyone that has just started playing HC could buy them before hitting level max level.. :D

"

Fluffy_Puppies wrote:

Increased ease of transactions - As of now we have Poe.trade, the notice board, and the chaos of trade chat channels. Anyone trying to get a good deal has to wade through all these different channels, which is both time consuming and unenjoyable. I have personally seen someone trying to sell fusings for ex 80:1 in trade chat one, while another person was trying to buy fusings 77:1 ex on the noticeboard. Clearly neither person was aware of the other. having a unified place to conduct trade would eliminate this problem and be beneficial to everyone.

Increased ease of transactions = increased decay of low to mid tier items

Using currency as an example is all fine and dandy since they are not really volatile in a market. Sadly that's not the entire scope of the available market

"

Fluffy_Puppies wrote:

Higher volume of trades - More buyers and sellers, faster trades, more competition, and more options. It would be nice to finally be able to sell the over 2,000 chroms I have picked up while playing the game, and it would be nice to know I am getting the best deal when buying a rare or unique item. This holds true to every single player, so again it is beneficial to everyone.

Similar to above, increased progression rate within the game content.

Conversely to this the game would require balancing around this fact.

"

Fluffy_Puppies wrote:

Less time spent trying to trade - Does this need explaining? Anyone who is not a flipper doesn't want to spend time trading. Less time trading means more time mapping, atziri farming, or MFing etc etc. Anyone who plays the game for fun should be in favor of needing less time to complete a trade.

Trading no longer requires a time/energy investment, which undermines the trade-off of playing vs trading.
Which you point out yourself, is a relevant factor.

"

Fluffy_Puppies wrote:

Greater market efficiency - I can touch on this, but you will really need to educate yourself to get a full understanding. I would suggest A Random Walk Down Wall Street to get a run down of efficient market hypothesis (EMH). Unlike our modern real world stock markets the PoE market is not efficient at all.

It's not designed to be efficient, duh? This has both up and down-sides.

"

Fluffy_Puppies wrote:

Trades can be completed while offline - Again does this need to be explained? It is not fun for anyone to find a seller on poe.trade that has the only rare a player needs and see he is offline. What if that item is needed for a build to function? As it is the seller is stuck with a rare he doesn't need and the buyer is stuck unable to continue his character.

Completely removes the item decay functionality of people not playing. Ultimately people that are offline have left the economy and so have their items, which creates an interesting situation for buyers.
(interesting = can be read as cumbersome or as opportunity)

As for my education, no clue why that's relevant, but i left school at the age of 14. So i guess your giving me more credit then i am due.

Cheers for that?

I think your purposefully ignoring how trading ultimately effects game-play itself and balance. The current system allows for the current balance progression, that would no longer be the case if it gets more efficient.

For somebody that has whatever education and phd's to back up his claims your failing to look at the bigger picture.
Which works great for you, since i gather you already have an established foothold in the standard market, both in currency and gear for your characters.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : well i fucked up my quotes./fixed now

"

PyleWarlord wrote:

AH without other ways to trade would be nice.. :D

Then everybody can enjoy 100 chaos Wanderlusts, Redbeaks, Abberath's Horn's and +1 wands/daggers.

When i still used D3's AH, in the end i was earning millions farming level 1-15 HC gear and selling them to flippers.
I even purchased blue items from vendors with good 2 stats for 35000 and then selled then for 500000-5000000(and they sold like cookies) and there was no way that anyone that has just started playing HC could buy them before hitting level max level.. :D

This has already been said by other posters in this thread like Scrotie, but it bears repeating. The opposite of what you said is what would actually happen. D3's gold currency was worthless, which led to hyper inflation vs items. In PoE chaos has built in utility and is constantly needed by all high level players.

The price of uniques and rares has been consistently trending down vs chaos and will continue to do so at an increased speed with an AH.

"

Fluffy_Puppies wrote:

"

camar1s wrote:

Still AH is the superlazy variant of trading.
I still would like kind of shops in the hideouts more.
Cant say anything positive about ah.

No problem I'll do it for you.

Increased ease of transactions.

Higher volume of trades.

Less time spent trying to trade.

Greater market efficiency (prices reflect actual value).

Trades can be completed while offline.

Negatives include:

Less social interaction? Lol check reddit for plenty of cases of that kind of 'social interaction'.

There are no negatives to an AH.

This is how you see it.
Its not how i do think about ah.

Sure all your points maybe true at a first look.
But if ahs last longer they always hurt games in MY OPINION.
Why do i think so? Cause thats what my experience is.

And to be honest. I already had some nice social interaction cause of trading ingame.
Just because some people dont know how to behave anymore, some still do and from time to time you really meet those guys.

@Boem

You didn't refute a single one of my positions and also didn't back up your original position. You initially claimed the benefits of an AH I listed were not actually benefits for new players, but only for established traders. You actually claimed they were detrimental to new players. I then listed out how each of my points was beneficial to everyone except for those seeking to exploit the current inefficient trade system.

You have now changed your argument to say that an AH would increase rates of character progression and devalue rare / unique items. Both of these are true, but were not being argued over. This is a moving the goalposts fallacy.


Arguing that increased rate of character progression and the devaluation of rare / unique items are bad things for (new) players is just as much of an uphill struggle for you. If you instead want to argue that these things are bad for GGG, well maybe they are. But that wasn't what you or I initially argued over. We argued over what is good for the players.

So with that being said...

Increased rate of character progression - It is nearly impossible to get to lvl 100 in PoE, even with all the benefits of GG gear. The time investment is astounding. Players getting decent gear quickly so they can spend more time in high level content such as end game maps, or atziri will have little or no effect on the gaming experience. Is it better that currently people farm Dried Lake until lvl 75-80 before they have the currency needed to buy the gear to map? I don't think so.


Devaluation of rare / unique items - This is a very good thing for new players. It is a trend that has already been taking place and will continue to take place, regardless of if an AH is implemented or not.

Chaos has been the main form of currency for mid level items for ages now, and chaos can be farmed at a steady rate. At the same time all but legacy uniques and all but mirror lvl rares have been dropping in price. This results in new players being able to gear up quicker than ever before.

Case in point I bought a 6 link shavs for 65 ex when ex was going 1:30 vs chaos. That means I needed 1,950 chaos for my shavs. Now a 6 link shavs is going for 25 ex and ex is going 1:60 vs chaos. That means a new player wanting to buy a 6 link shavs only needs to farm 1,500 chaos.

It is true that many mid rarity uniques used to sell for more chaos and ex than they do now. But that just means that there is less RNG involved in farming. Alpha's howl used to sell for 6 ex at one point over a year ago. Now they are 6 chaos. A new player only needs to perform the chaos recipe 3 times to get themselves a nice shiny alpha's howl. That is the definition of good for new players.

with higher efficiency of trading, which you propose, everything but established value items(unique's) and at a similar notion currency devalue over time.

Well devalue is a wrong therm, the discrepancy between good and bad increases, devaluating a lot of drops which in the current system still hold relevance and can be sold.

This creates a position where a new player can only amass currency by selling either currency or unique items.

A rare is deemed unworthy to trade for unless it is a godly roll, which happens roughly, never. This takes a huge bite out of the income of new players that have the intellect to price their items accordingly or
"play the market".

This is already visible on standard, where we see the "higher efficiency" trading effects take place, not because it has a higher efficiency trading but because the market is allowed to run forever.(which acts in a similar fashion)

All that increased efficiency in trading would accomplish is a faster decay of items worth trading for outside of the established value items.(being uniques/currency/ four or more T1 rolls)

I consider that a bad thing for new players or players who want to join a league in the middle of its duration. Since they would have very little chance of playing the "catch-up" game and be limited to lesser options to do so.
(what you refer to as exploits i suppose?)

The result is more activity in trading in the first stages of its development with a complete lock-out for any but the top after a given duration.(in this case, shorter duration)

I am not moving anything, i am simply assuming things i find obvious, which i gather you don't.

Peace,

-Boem-

It is the opposite of a lockout. As I stated uniques are cheaper on standard and so are rares. Yes it is true people do not sell each other trash on standard like they do on temp leagues, and it is also true that standard is a more mature economy. That is however, different from being efficient.

With items being cheaper new players can buy more gear. Chaos has only depreciated vs exalts while it has appreciated vs every unqiue and rare with the only exceptions of mirror gear and legacy uniques. For everything else new players are better off with an AH. They are better off with 2ex windrippers instead of 40ex windrippers and they are better off with consistent income from chaos and alts than from sporadic rare drops making or breaking their farming session.

Yes less people will be ultra rich in terms of having a stash tab full of exalts, but no one would need a stash tab full of exalts to gear up their character to begin with.

You did try to change the goal posts. It is literally there for you and everyone else to see. I had to drag this back on track to being about what is good or bad for us the players.

I have now also made my case for cheap items being good from a buyer perspective.

You still haven't even attempted to refute my original positive points for the AH.

"

Fluffy_Puppies wrote:

It is the opposite of a lockout. As I stated uniques are cheaper on standard and so are rares. Yes it is true people do not sell each other trash on standard like they do on temp leagues, and it is also true that standard is a more mature economy. That is however, different from being efficient.

With items being cheaper new players can buy more gear. Chaos has only depreciated vs exalts while it has appreciated vs every unqiue and rare with the only exceptions of mirror gear and legacy uniques. For everything else new players are better off with an AH. They are better off with 2ex windrippers instead of 40ex windrippers and they are better off with consistent income from chaos and alts than from sporadic rare drops making or breaking their farming session.

Yes less people will be ultra rich in terms of having a stash tab full of exalts, but no one would need a stash tab full of exalts to gear up their character to begin with.

You did try to change the goal posts. It is literally there for you and everyone else to see. I had to drag this back on track to being about what is good or bad for us the players.

I have now also made my case for cheap items being good from a buyer perspective.

You still haven't even attempted to refute my original positive points for the AH.

I have, we just differ on what is good or bad for the players as a whole.

I have no issue with that. I will leave it at that since this will just become a dog chasing it's own tail kind of thing and i have better things to do.

Consider that a victory for you if you will.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : to put it bluntly fluffy, i have no fears of an AH because it's not going to happen and for good reasons.

The best we are going to get will be cross instance trading i imagine and i will be glad when that happens. Nothing more, nothing less.