imo Mana, Energy Shield and Leech are not good enough

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grepman wrote:

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

Everything else you said is just noise that's been addressed earlier in the thread.

so it was noise...yet it was addressed earlier in the thread ? lol

you have presented zero arguments to me. zeee-ro. all you said in your post was 'I wanna ' I WANNA have my build be as good as top tier builds.' this is your argument.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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grepman wrote:

you keep on saying that my points are comical without actually explaining how they are comical.

theyre commical because u guys are telling me I need to invest in mana nodes, get flat mana + regen on gear, run clarity, 'pay' for my resource costs etc.

for a start we are not even talking about my builds, you keep saying I dont want to pay for this or that like we are discussing a build I have made that is struggling.

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My builds are all wearing 200, 300, 400+ exalts worth of gear

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you think I dont have flat mana and mana regen on my gear? You think I dont find ways to make what I am doing work? I have a level 21 clarity gem running on my builds. Theres nothing you can tell me about gear or building characters that is news to me. Stop thinking this is about "I want this for my characters because im sturggling with something", its not, its a detached look at mana from a 2 year overview of what Ive seen in the game and what I have experienced playing an extremely wide range of builds at pretty much every level of gear.

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then theres the idea that I wouldnt spend 20 points on mana, that Im spoiled by the old eb etc. Mate, we used to take the old eb and take 20 points of mana with it, and then get flat mana + regen on both rings, amulet, even on weapons, and then run cloaks with flat mana and mana regen, and then run a lvl22 clarity with 7 aura nodes while having a mana flask while pumping 4 digit figures of energy shield into our mana pool from our gears defenses.

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Even then you STILL could fail to sustain a 6 link mana per second cost when playing a dual wield dark arts style cast speed build, and that was with old EB. I may be wrong but I dont think you even have gear good enough to put into mana what I have put into mana in builds back when old eb was in the game and you could almost always actually get there and sustain on regen, it was possible. What you dont seem to be able to understand is that it can become completely impractical and sometimes even impossible. Maybe not in your experience, but its a reality.

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Its there if you want it

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https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAwMABAcEswVCBx4I9A3RDkgQWBEtEVARlhOeFr8W8xo4GyUc3B2DIG4i9CY8JpUnLyycLdIvnTBbMtE1uUGWQ2NDyESrRUdFnUlRSbFLrkyzUDBTUlVLVa5Vxl3yXypfamHiY0NknWZUaPJqQ2wLbRlwUnDVcU12EXyDfjN_xoIQgpuD24V7hX2J04w2jHaPGo-mj_qQVZMnlS6Vh5o7ms-a4KEvogCkkacrrJeus7zqvorAVMBm0B_Q0ND11abXz9lb217fit-w4XPpAuvk6-7r9ew47TzviO_r8B_w1fId-Tc=?accountName=Snorkle_uk&characterName=_Diziet_


now, about this build. Its a mana leech caster, life/armour/energy shield hybrid crit arc. The gear is often stupidly expensive and it wouldnt really function if the gear was anything short of really good. Compared to an equally geared melee or bow character its more squishy and has less damage, would e harder to gear, would require a higher level of gear to start to become defensively viable for mid to high maps. Far more picky about map mods than the attackers.

The stats we are getting with the setup, 5k life, 4,200 energy sheild, 4,700 armour, 4 endurance charges, 50% all res over cap in merciless, positive 10% chaos resist, life regen still applies to life, ghost reaver with instant life and mana leech from acuity gloves and a warlords mark curse on hit herald of thunder setup + manual warlords curse. 40k dps crit arc, 7 power charges 0 frenzy charges.

You can faceroll maps with this sort of build, no doubt, but you are really relying on that instant leech. In really hard rolled higher maps blue mobs can knock off your entire 4k shield with a single hit, killing a flame dog can evaporate your es on the burning ground in seconds. You would have to play so carefully, timidly if you didnt have that instant leech. I wouldnt play it, Im sure it would work but just way too fragile. An armour+evasion hybrid melee could virtually afk content that could kill this build very quickly if its not leeching.

so what did I invest in mana? There are 12 mana nodes of some description taken,

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Im running a lvl15 clarity and I have flat mana and mana regen on both rings. This is to make mana leech work, not regen. My 6th gem is power charge on crit which is a 110% multiplier, fc is 120%, empower is 125%, this is not an expensive supports build at all. My arc cost is 89 per cast and I have 4.61 casts per sec, so I pay that a little over twice per second with spell echo being a link. I have 108 mana per second, you would need about 100 more I think to sustain this on regen.

So if I didnt go leech, if I went regen lets look at what Id have to do. The mana regen nodes in the witch start are really nice, 8% mana + 10% regen, its a little under the efficiency of taking a small mana node and then a larger mana notable so a good indicator of what we would get for points spent. If I take one I get about 7 more mana per sec. We need 100, we have 12 mana nodes of various sorts already. Lets call it 8 per node as its a little under notable efficiency, so we need another 12 mana nodes... well theres 3 in the witch start, decree in templar, siphon in shadow, thats 7, could spend 2 nodes to get to dreamer, thats now 9 of the 12 we need and we have spent 11 points taking our mana investment to 23 points and still failing to sustain our mana cost. What next? Take mind drinker? It still wont be enough,. maybe path to duelist and get mana flows?


This isnt even a cast speed heavy build. No speed on rings, non on amulet, Im not dual wielding 22% cast speed sceptres I have 1 wand with 16%, I picked the spell damage instead of cast speed in the witch start. Mana cost per second for this build is nowhere near what some builds would demand. I didnt pick leech because it was easier than regen sustain, I picked it because it was POSSIBLE, right? This resulting character is already outclassed by similar budget builds right across the spectrum in defense and damage, it doesnt have 11 more points to spend on mana, at that point you dont even have a character worth playing for that sort of budget, and 11 is still not enough to sustain, the mana nodes are just not there even if I wanted to invest in them. It wasnt a choice between leech and regen, regen was not an option even if I was willing to completely invalidate my damage or defenses to invest in it because the nodes dont even exist, are you with me? Or is your answer to all this still "I can sustain mana fine on the 5 link builds I play this guy must be a noob, go get flat mana on your gear noob and learn to invest in mana, its not free like when you used to get eb you actually have to take the mana nodes omg" patronizing nonsense?


Im not saying go mad. I would increase the amount of mana you get from int, up the amount of mana on the hybrid life/mana nodes in the witch start, keep the es the same on the arcane focus nodes but add mana to those too, make cruel preperation and deep thoughts take 2 fill nodes to reach from either side and then have deep thoughts be 30% mana 30% regen. Add some more regen to a few nodes around there the way mental rapidity got a bit. Just to help anchor casters and mana in the int part of the tree. The game is balanced around what we are playing right now. A lot of people think the game is too hard right now, I disagree, I think its mostly fine, but what is not a good idea is lets nerf every other style of build in the entire game down to the level of resource cost and defensive capability open to energy shield mana regen based characters. Thats not going to happen, its absurd. This is a game, it should be fun, it should be challenging yes, theres no point nerfing 50 different things and making everyone hate the game when you can just buff 1 and if you need to up the mobs damage a bit more then so be it. I dont think you do, I think the damage being done to us is pretty heavy duty, the tools are there to handle it for most builds, the int area needs a little love somewhere though because its falling behind. So you have to look at what you can do to bring them more on par with the massive range of other build types that we are all playing right now and are working. Mana is an int aligned function and it seems to me the only characters who are struggling with mana for the longest time are int based casters using the int based energy shield defense mechanic in a lot of its forms like hybrid, ci and low life. There was a time when you could add wanders to that, another int based theme where mana just fell short of being good enough. Just drop the whole reactionary way you are taking what Im saying and actually think about it from a view point that is not constantly trying to balance through nerfing.

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I feel like people are in knee jerk, dismissive autopilot mode just rolling out their stock arguments against a stereotypical "make game ez plz" inexperienced gamer who needs schooled. I dont think youre seeing the bigger picture and understanding the interactions and equivalences involved in what Im pointing out.

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and now you take away another 20% then maybe theres no reason to actually bother playing those builds any more?

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and how it performs compared to the alternatives, otherwise people just wont play areas of builds that dont perform regardless of how satisfied you are with what it takes to make them work 1 by 1.

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You cant let the game become dysfunctional and not enjoyable just because it suits some kind of negative idealist agenda you hold. You have look at whats there, how its working in practice and what you can change to improve how it works in practice. Its not about some Spanish Inquisition style nerf hunt through the game, bring the noob in front of me and I will flail his heretic build until Im satisfied its suffered enough. Thats a sure way to just kill this game.

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davidnn5 wrote:

Crikey... I'm not quoting the wall of text you responded with, Grepman.

But two telling points for me from your response - firstly, you suggested any build not micro-managing mana (and probably a number of other things, i.e. pressing buttons every second or two) is OP. Ok...

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I think if you go back and play Diablo II, on which PoE is based, you'll find most builds OP based on your definition. Don't get me wrong though, micro-managing is great - if I'm playing turn-based or real time strategy games. Not so much in an ARPG.

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Secondly, you infer that there's an argument to be 'won'. In my experience, when two parties hold strong views, neither is going to change their perspective. Hence you haven't changed mine; and I doubt I've changed yours. Again, you love the game because you love the game. Doesn't make it objectively good or well-balanced though.

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By the way, I'm an 80s gamer. I played many games on the Commodore 64, Amiga 256, 512, I played some of the earliest games on an XT that took 25 minutes to boot up. The computer you used in the 90s was probably about 17000 times as fast as the computer I used then. The era in which you started playing games has some influence, I'm sure, but at the end of the day you're a gaming masochist because you're a gaming masochist. And, possibly, a white knight because you enjoy fairy tales?

;)

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

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grepman wrote:

ah so you're calling the devs liars. gotcha. I have no further questions. you can't even admit when you're wrong, so sad.

to sit here and deny stuff thats written well by developers with a straight face...sure takes a lot of nerve.

I havent met anyone here who would read A and say it's B here on the forums. until your post. congrats.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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Ouroboros226 wrote:

The manacost on this thing is uttely insane, you would have to build an entire character around it to even maintain it.

That's the point. This is not meant to be a skill you can maintain. The option exists to build around achieving that, if you so desire, but this is specifically intended as a temporary buff skill, not something you can always have on.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

The option exists to build around achieving that, if you so desire

Says it all really. I could do without the personal insults though thanks.

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Actions do speak louder than words. How can you explain the mere existence of

?[/spoiler]

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You should reread the thread, why should I waste time & space restating things?

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Sorry to burst your bubble, I'm not here to present arguments to you. My feedback is directed at GGG.

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When did I say I WANNA have my build be as good as top tier builds? When did I say that?
I want a balanced game. I want top tier casters to be as good as top tier attackers. That's what I want.
Stop putting words in my mouth.

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In fact, I want more than that. I want builds of comparable levels of investment to perform comparably across as broad spectra as possible. That's why we're here in this subforum.

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grepman wrote:

So snorkel, I've came up with rough solutions to how to make your build work with regeneration and no leech required. There's an easier one and a harder one. The latter ill leave for later as I'm typing from phone right now and it will involve stacking our tools.

Here's an easier one: drop faster casting and replace it with RM gem. Drop GR. Drop crit wheel near GR. Invest in mana/rc wheel in Templar area. Invest in a vaal clarity - increase duration - rallying cry 3l setup. Insert healthy mind jewel into Templar area slot and thus get 60% mana. Now your spell costs around 50 mana and you cast it 4 times per sec. Get a couple of high mana regeneration jewelry pieces. Any jewels you use should have mana regeneration or cost reduction
Level 20 clarity gives you 17 regeneration. Level 20 rc gets you 15 flat. That should be enough coupled with your mana pool to sustain, plus minutes which you can always fix with things like survival tactics and empower on clarity. You don't even need a mana pot.

Yeah you sacrifice crit, cast speed and life. But that's the fucking point of resource management in the first place.

Part coming in the evening, don't wanna type poe novels at work.

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Vincendra wrote:

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grepman wrote:

So snorkel, I've came up with rough solutions to how to make your build work with regeneration and no leech required. There's an easier one and a harder one. The latter ill leave for later as I'm typing from phone right now and it will involve stacking our tools.

Here's an easier one: drop faster casting and replace it with RM gem. Drop GR. Drop crit wheel near GR. Invest in mana/rc wheel in Templar area. Invest in a vaal clarity - increase duration - rallying cry 3l setup. Insert healthy mind jewel into Templar area slot and thus get 60% mana. Now your spell costs around 50 mana and you cast it 4 times per sec. Get a couple of high mana regeneration jewelry pieces. Any jewels you use should have mana regeneration or cost reduction
Level 20 clarity gives you 17 regeneration. Level 20 rc gets you 15 flat. That should be enough coupled with your mana pool to sustain, plus minutes which you can always fix with things like survival tactics and empower on clarity. You don't even need a mana pot.

Yeah you sacrifice crit, cast speed and life. But that's the fucking point of resource management in the first place.

Part coming in the evening, don't wanna type poe novels at work.

So I understand correctly...

He has to sacrifice the measily damage he allready does (with that kind of GG gear) only to sustain costs on mana?

Where cyclone/melee skills dont have to?

which was the fkn point of this post?