imo Mana, Energy Shield and Leech are not good enough

"

grepman wrote:

as a programmer, I argue strictly and only strictly under terms of logic.

lulz. I have a good understanding of syllogistic and predicate logic and I wouldn't make such a bold statement about myself. While this is an aside, it does raise some problems. If you're going to have this count for anything at all, you'll have to cede your entire position to Snorkle based on his expertise on this subject. Both would be an appeal to authority or expertise. On to the main point, however:

I'm not saying that you, specifically, have taken the approach to refute Snorkle's subjective opinion by offering your own, and I'll assume you then mean to refute it by comparing it to some objective reality. So let's take a look at what you are offering as an external framework for comparison that might then give weight to refuting Snorkle.

"

grepman wrote:

my point has a very solid logical foundation Ive restated many times-

1) top tier builds dont sacrifice shit for resource management and treat it (resource management) like an annoying sore that needs to be bandaided.
2) people want casters to be brought up to the level of top tier builds in terms of resource management. not to 190 builds that exist in poe, but the top 10. not ice shot or cleave, but cyclone or pa.

there is nothing subjective about that. those two points are facts.
from that, a simple conclusion follows that really casters want to not sacrifice *as much* shit to get resource management.

These are, in fact, both subjective opinions. Even if they're true, they won't lead to the conclusion about other people's motivations for choices. In order for you to make these even appear factual, you'll probably have to establish both what resource management even means and that top tier builds are acting in a certain way. The first of those would be a mental construct, relation of ideas, etc. and could be established theoretically, but you've made no attempt to do so. The second is an a posteriori matter of fact, which is impossible to establish with deductive weight, so it by definition remains subjective. It could be reinforced in its inductive strength in many ways, but I don't see anything more meaningful you've provided other than subjective assertions. I remain totally unconvinced.

What is your idea, exactly, of resource management? Does it not occur to you that life and defenses are also resources available to the player and that your perspective seems to only be considering mana? Does it not occur to you that Snorkle's argument that mana isn't good enough is precisely because efficient managing of resources involves trading inefficient resources into efficient ones? Enter blood magic, life flasks, utility flasks, charges, and a whole slew of other resources that provide more benefit than mana. If I'm going to have to put reduced mana into my 6-link setup, its just flat more efficient to use blood magic instead. Do I want to use my spell+flat mana+mana regen+clarity+mana pot to make the spell work or do I want to use spell+blood magic+offensive aura+life flask to make it do more with less? You seem to think that all the top tier builds and all the selfish brats out there are treating "resource management" as a nuisance, when really (given your examples) they're just treating mana as a nuisance because it is so clearly worse than other resources, which is EXACTLY to Snorkle's point. Sure, we can make it work through more effort and receive less benefit, but why do that when there are more effective resources available? Do we have a reason other than just because?

I can see you coming into this discussion and saying that there should be more resource management focused on mana, and probably agreeing that Snorkle's right but not because mana isn't good enough, but because competing resources are too easy to maintain and manage and provide too much. Maybe you think the game would be better if resource management and conservation were more difficult and prominent, and then argue that the value of life and defenses should be scaled back in order to make mana a meaningful resource to balance, or that mana flasks should provide more benefit that they do, or mana reservation provides too much and thereby devalues mana. Any of these would be constructive. Hell, you could even come in and say we can make mana work through more effort and progress slower and get less loot and having to work harder because you think it's more fun, and that'd be a subjective argument I could maybe even get behind, but don't pretend it's because people in general or people like Snorkle have got something wrong or have some complex. That's not productive, and neither is trying to ignore the issues he raises so you can rephrase the whole thread into your own mana=resource management perspective.

"

grepman wrote:

my point is that, if everyone is striving for 'perfection' and 'efficiency' and everyone tries to emulate what the top tier builds do (which is not spend precious nodes or gems for resource management) then why not get rid of cost of spells altogether ?

=Hyperbole

"

grepman wrote:

if all the casters are trying to do is to not spend time resource management, why do we even need mana ? and why are people then pretending like they care about resource management ? if for them its a tool that is just a springboard to sustain health and damage, why act like its important ?

These are questions that lead to Snorkle's point, not counterarguments to it. Why is mana there if it's not a relevant resource people value? Probably because it has issues that have never been fixed and remains not good enough for people to work it into their overall resource management. Why are people pretending like they care about resource management? Probably because they do, they just don't value mana among their options, giving some weight to the argument that it's not good enough. Why care about mana if it currently is just subservient to health and damage? Snorkle is saying because it presents itself as something to care about and so should be able to find a relevant place by being made more valuable. Old EB+MoM made it valuable by just turning it into another resource (life), but this was a band-aid and hasn't fixed the issue. Remove that band-aid and people go to the next efficient alternative, blood magic and other similars because they're still so far ahead. If mana can be made more valuable, or other resources worse competitors, this is where the productive discussion would start. Now, after many pages of various opinions, your questions circle back to the original post and we can see we would just now be starting in the right direction.

"

Biznits wrote:

Why is mana there if it's not a relevant resource people value?

mana is there to fuel spells and as a soft-cap for players power. another layer of complexity separating good from bad (builds, players)


why players do not value it? there are several reasons but the easiest to describe is: because lack of it is punished the least. punisment for lack of defense is death. punishment for lack of damage is low clearspeed ('the value' of the build in front of peers). punishment for lack of mana is (in reality) zero clear speed and broken build. but people put bandaids and move on.

remove the bandaids and people will value mana more - because without it, there is no build.

also, people give low value to free things and quickly start to expect that these are for free and theirs forever. for too long entire mana management was 'slap one leech ring' (attackers) or EB (casters). it is difficult to care about something that trivial. (and no, EB did not need 20 nodes to work. it was EB + AA + Inner Force that required several mana nodes. that is a 250mana/sec 'subtle' difference). also - back in the day when Kripp died horrible death to corpse explosion the 6Link was a myth-shrouded artifact. and even 5Link was kind of luxyry. different times.



in early 20th century warship design had 3 main factors: speed, armour, guns. these 3 are interconnected and one cannot have 3. it was always a design choice. poe is very similar. players are expected to allocate affixes and passives to cover offense, defense and upkeep. but somehow (and it is mostly ggg's fault of lack of communication) the necessity to make choices and that not everything is a given is not widely understood. everything is available but one can pick only a fraction of it. and neglecting mana is like buying a very expensive car and bragging to friends about how fast it is but not buying gas because 'it is not worth it'.

if you cannot sustain the gas cost - get yourself a cheaper car. but most impulse buyers think about running costs only after purchase. and it is never NEVER their fault.

While I agree on what mana is supposed to do, I don't know if least punishment is a total explanation of why it is undervalued. Life and mana do, after all, follow different models. Life is something you are given, and can develop, and which monsters are trying to take away from you. Mana is something you are given, and can develop, in order to positively fuel your abilities. There's an inherently less confrontational nature to mana as compared to something like life, so while greater punishment for lack of mana would increase its relative value , I don't think that's the most important way to address it. And mind you, when I say value I don't just mean people's valuing it, but also it's face value in game, it's usefulness, it's relative strength.

As snorkle mentions, mana's not being good enough isn't an isolated issue, but one from the whole perspective of the game. Making lack of mana more punishing by itself will only increase people's reliance on band-aids or forms of converting it into another resource. Balancing the relative strength of mana would, I believe, be a necessary first step before it could be made more punishing, and that will require holistic game changes.

You've seemed very interested in how people feel about mana and whatever feelings of entitlement they may have, but that doesn't interest me because I don't think the problem is just one of perception, but that people have the perception and make the decisions they do because of real mana imbalance issues in the game. Simple fixes like removing blood magic altogether could be done, and there would of course be bitching, but a lot of the bitching in that scenario would, I feel, be justified. There would be huge imbalance between the ability of melees to take 3 nodes and never worry and casters really struggling. This is why I stress recognizing snorkle's concerns as legitimate first before worrying about people enjoying the game more through having proper feelings toward it.

To stress the difference between life and mana, or mana and other resources, I think your car analogy is very accurate. Nobody who is poor buys a new car because gas is a financial burden on them. Cars have too much upfront cost to make the marginal differences of gas significant, and gas is a secondary resource, one that doesn't do anything at all without a car, so it will always have significantly less real value. Buying a new car would be like building a new character, and I don't think you really want people getting even more focused on a select few "top tier" builds because they can't afford gas in the car they have. Snorkle may be the Dondald Trump in this analogy, and I'm sure Trump doesn't brag to his buds about his mpg. He wants the secondary resources of the car to be able to support the horsepower it's built for. Snorkle says mana can't do that right now for a lot of high-end caster builds, so between that and low-end players either going FotM or not driving at all because gas is too costly and they can't afford a whole new car, you may be the middle class guy who's happy to buy a smart car and make it work and save along the way, but the larger issue Snorkle is addressing is still unresolved.

the problem (one of many that cluttered the OP) is that AT THE TOP END casters cannot hold candle to melee/bow characters

this is the problem that irks the OP. everything else is what he thinks might fix it.

sad truth is that this game (nor pretty much any other game) cannot be balanced at all power-ranges. for newbs, for casuals, for poor experts and for no-life traders with 500et in their stash

ggg balances (well, lets say they do, ignoring for a while some of their latest creations) for a certain 'power range'. fully aware that people outside this range will face weird stuff. and they face them: newbs are given choices that at the first glance WILDLY differ in power (spectral throw is amazing at lvl 1 for a new player compared to reave). but the cost of this miss-balance is low as players level up and that mess is left behind

on the other end of the spectrum, the loud .2% (OP included) with thousands ex worth of gear face the same stuff - at that end the multipliers game is so far off that some combinations just beat the living crap of other combinations. this time around 'the casters' are shafted and melee reigns supreme. few patches ago it was CI, casters, bow etc etc. this is inevitable and most likely - BY DESIGN (or rather - controlled omission)

the .2% are not even considered for balancing, just like all statistical outliers are removed and ignored when making any kind of serious data analysis

THIS power discrepancy is the problem, not the mana. why? because OP demands and expects that all build archetypes are as OP as the current top OP build and in case of casters he sees the mana as what is stopping them. but truth be told even with free spell costs that Arc'er of his would gain 2 rolls on gear and 3 passives. would that be enough to catch up with reaver or cyclone guys? nope. mana is just a collateral. arc simply has not enough multipiliers to clear fast enough to be deemed 'worthy' by the .2% it hits not enough targets, can hit for 100 damage (that sweet lightning variance), does not chain from shattered corpses, innervate provides more-of-not-needed instead of sweet 'more' multiplier etc etc.

on the other hand incinerate (spell) plows trough everything no problem. but multiplying damage of all spells by 4 would simply ruin the game for the 'normal' players (too many changes at once is something ggg cannot handle well)

problem of spellcasters being 'crap' does not affect 'normal' players. because they are not comparing themselves to 1500ex melee builds, not even 100ex melee builds. at this level (i play at this level as i see no point in nolifing content over and over again for no reason) there are no discrepancies - melee guys have their 1h 250-300pdps weapons, casters have their 5link and few nice caster perks and both groups are happily plowing. melee guys are bit tankier but risk more, casters deal cheaper (gear) damage and are at higher risk of sudden demise. neither are thinking about tier12+ corrupted maps. the 'casual guys' do not have mana problems - they do not have 6links and do not seek the highest cast speed possible (because they cannot afford it).



in short: problem affects .2% and is so far away from what ggg cares about balance-wise that no DELIBERATE changes will happen. because ofc some changes will happen: in a multipliers game the poe is - one small change down in the multipliers chain can change a lot at the top. and mana regen (that also has to be understood by the user - it is a nonlinear equation some do not understand) is not a cause of the power discrepancies.

The entirety of your post is refuted by me, a not .2% guy, never run uber, likes to make builds to around 80 and then get a new build because I don't see it worth my time to pursue that level of dimishing returns, this guy, saying I also have troubles with all my builds that rely on mana regen. Could I make it work? Sometimes, but not always. Is it worth it to me even if I could? No. It's no longer just a .2% problem.

Here's why that refutes your post:
The original post is not directed to just the very top end. He clearly states that. Your claim is that it is really just a first world exile problem. Your sum evidence? Saying that it's not the case for anyone but the .2%. When I say it is, you've got nothing left to run on unless you want to turn this into a poll and try to get numbers to support you. Until you do win that vote, you've no place jumping into Snorkle's post and poopoo-ing on it because you say it's not a problem. You may politely say you don't experience what he's describing, but you've not given any more argument than one person in a poll. My contrary experience, which is that mana is actually more manageable in the very early levels where potion slots are not in high demand and auras are not in play, totally offsets yours. Once I get to a point where I need auras to get enough ele dps to make my build work, or grace and a herald to make my hybrid armor/eva have any signficant eva without going under 4k life, mana gets totally outclassed by all the other needs pressing on my build. And that's just some life builds. Anything with ES and not 100's of exalts is running discipline and getting ES on gear, which means lower armor/eva and looking more to auras and mana using defenses. I don't want to spend 100's of ex, and its a real struggle for this whole class of builds (by design presentation, 1/3rd of naturally presented options) to work for me as a middle class driver. I claim it's not just the .2%, you do. We break even, and don't even come close to statistical significance, so Snorkle's original feedback post remains just that, his subjective feedback, unchanged and not noticeably criticized.

well, maybe im better at puzzling mana pieces together or i simply accept that i will pay some damage penalty for ability to do damage at all but ALL my builds i have (25? ~lvl80+) run on mana. for some it took more effort, for some it is trivial. one just needs to understand how this system works and where are highest gains. when i see people stacking %mana regen neglecting all else i know they do not understand how this all works

so i know that it can be done in the 'mid-class' territory and quite successfully. if someone cannot do that it is then: a) corner case that might need inspection b) users fault c) expectation that the price needed should be lower and as such the cost demanded is unacceptable. GOTO: bandaid solution

In patch 2.0 ggg theoricaly buffed casters by releasing flat added fire/cold/lightning damage to spells on wands and staffs.
With removed eternal orb it became almost impossible to craft better wands than void battery, although in theory it is possible to craft better wand than void battery, but it requires thousands maybe hundred of thousands exalts to craft one.

Comparing to old wands, new mod added lightning damage to spells would increase lvl 24 arc's damage by: 56-1062 + 10-133 => 12.8% more damage per wand.

But the increased outcome versus cost is way to low.

@sid
That's fair. Most of my builds run on mana too. And they function. But I do find it's a big pain in the butt to make it all work together on casters (whom the game presents as the most natural choice for such an approach, ironically) and ele characters, especially ES casters. And the net result is just a loss, not an interesting decision or approach. All you've added is essentially "you're doing it wrong, that's why you don't agree with me." Your impact on the thread and your place in it remains unchanged.

Fristly, I wish I went to a debating class to put my thoughs so eloquently as Biznits does, even in my language.

Secondly, to "bandaid"ly solve the problem of unusable manapotions and mana as general resource I propose the following:

Make Mana reservation only stop Mana regen at a certain point (e.g. having 50% reservation means your natural mana regen stops regeneration at 50% of the mana globe).

You can fill up the reserved portion of mana though those means:

.) Mana Pots
.) Mana Leech
.) Mana gained on Kill
.) Mana gained on Hit

This way, you have full possible use of your resource bar, mana pots wont stop b4 being truely full and the amount of mana and "some" investment into the tree would give enough leeway to incooperate at least Hybrid Flasks as "viable" means to sustain your manapool.

thank you Biznits and Vince for your posts and ideas

"

sidtherat wrote:

the problem (one of many that cluttered the OP) is that AT THE TOP END casters cannot hold candle to melee/bow characters

what irks me is that they dont hold a candle to them at almost any level above racing, and you can say its impossible to balance... ok but I have made specific suggestions which make it more balanced. You gonna say we shouldnt implement things that balance the game because we cant balance the game? My point is not that the game should be exactly balanced, its that these suggestions are good for the game. Here is why the areas of builds they buff are demonstrably more shit than the alternatives atm, why very few people are playing them and hence deserve this buff that will not lead to them being over powered but rather us having a game with more build variety to hold player interest and less dysfunctional mechanics that are woefully under used.

"

sidtherat wrote:

well, maybe im better at puzzling mana pieces together or i simply accept that i will pay some damage penalty for ability to do damage at all but ALL my builds i have (25? ~lvl80+) run on mana. for some it took more effort, for some it is trivial. one just needs to understand how this system works and where are highest gains. when i see people stacking %mana regen neglecting all else i know they do not understand how this all works

so i know that it can be done in the 'mid-class' territory and quite successfully. if someone cannot do that it is then: a) corner case that might need inspection b) users fault c) expectation that the price needed should be lower and as such the cost demanded is unacceptable. GOTO: bandaid solution

All my builds except my cyclone marauder run off mana too. All my builds work, I dont have a problem with any of my characters that I am trying to solve here. I posted an example of a caster I play who I say isnt as good as melees and bows... and yet nothing I have suggested in this thread would buff that character. I run off mana leech, doesnt bother that arcer if mana regen is better or not. I have instant leech, doesent effect me if my leech rate is based off life or es. I have regen on my life, I dont use zealots oath. When I posted that char, I said this thread is not about this char, this char works and would not be effected by these suggestions, and yet you think its about a character I have still and my inability to make mana work on that specific build. Not because you cant read but because you dont want to, it doesnt suit your agenda to absorb information that doesnt fit what you want to argue against.


You see people just stacking regen... I have 2 flat mana stats and 2 mana regen stats on gear on a character that has 0 mana problems and would not be in any way effected by any suggestion I have made.... Where in this thread have you seen a character posted who this thread is about and has mana regen without also having flat mana? This is the little person in your head who you are arguing against, the one that doesnt exist, that you invented and are projecting onto this thread and then disagreeing with. I dont understand how mana works? Sid I doubt theres a anything of significance you know about this game that I dont.


Like grepman, all your arguments against my points revolve around presuming my motivations for posting these things and then discrediting them, yet all your presumptions are wrong and thats why everything you say is meaningless. I want it because I want casters to be exactly as powerful as melee, Im saying it because I dont want to invest, Im saying it because I dont know how mana works... no none of those are true, everyone who is able to read without inserting their own agenda can see none of those are true. I dont have a single character that would benefit from any of these suggestions, I dont have a single character who has issues with fueling their skills. What I see is when I go to make a spam caster build energy shield is off the cards unless the gear budget is extreme and mana regen is off the cards unless the gear budget is self found rags. I dont have problems with my characters because I know how the game works and I know to avoid shit mechanics that dont perform.

You and grepman may know how to make mana work on your budgets, you might be masters of working with what we have. Im not talking about what we have, what I am doing with what we have is probably way more powerful than what you 2 are doing, the pair of you talk to me like you can show me some way to fix 'my problems', thats pretty funny tbh. But I am talking about what I dont do and why I dont do it, and why when you look at those things across a 2 and a half year history of this game very few people have done them on well made characters for exactly the same reasons. Sid I fully respect you and grepmans takes on how heavy an investment you think mana should be, but budget hybrid life es builds and endgame spell spammers spamming off mana regen without eb have not been a wide spread successful thing in this game, ever. You can say you think the demands on those characters are fine, but no one plays them, the truth of my take, that theyre not good enough, its written all over the entire history of this game for everyone to see.

You may think they are fine and that the problem is that every other build in the game needs nerfed or that its fine that a lot of potential builds like this are just too shit for most people to humor. But there is no getting around the fact that these things have never been the meta and its not been because no ones ever tried them and spread the word that theyre awesome choices. This game revolves around having many builds, many options and actually a lot of us do care if theres huge areas of builds that are not played, I think youll find the devs care too.