GGG forces us to play chicken mode

@Wispo

"

Not salty, SAD. Yes sad, because i'm an experienced player of these types of games and trust me... i have NEVER seen a game stupidly lacking of GOOD defences like this.

I don't think PoE lacks good defenses, they just don't work as well as they used to.

"

-Mobs that one shot you even with 86% res (in titan quest, at 80% cap, only ONE boss in the ENTIRE game was still dangerous with elemental)

Mobs aren't 1 shotting you with that much res specific combination of mods and\or bosses can do that.

"

-Mobs that one shot you with physical (in Titan quest, there was TWO methods of competely avoid melee, non AoE, physical damage... they were A PAIN IN THE ASS to obtain, but at difference of PoE, THEY WERE THERE)

Again mobs don't do this specific mods and combination of things must happen for this to happen. You mention avoid damage, PoE had CWDT\ec\IC\ID, it was broken as fuck, you cannot deny that. I'd rather see immortal call removed from the combo and allow for enduring cry to still be in it (as that was showcased when the combo was revealed)

"

-Mobs that fires, and in large groups, millions of projectiles (in Titan quest, there was the possibility, ANOTHER MEGA PAIN IN THE ASS, to reach 100% projectile avoid)

If your an evasion character and you take acro and arrow dancing you won't get hit by a projectile, especially if you have a decent amount of armor. You can also manually move out of the way from projectiles in PoE, not sure about titan quest.

"

-Total absence of a BASICAL defense in these types of games: THE RACIAL DAMAGE REDUCTION (i have suggested them, but they didn't hear me.... because if people die less, they have less time to pop out the new chapters before people's balls break and they live and stop to buy those annoying demons that screams in the cityes -.-)

You can get damage reduction in PoE not sure exactly what your complaint here is. Max res reduces the amount of elemental damage you take, armor reduces the physical damage you take, block\dodge\evade allows you to negate the damage completely.

"

-Total absence of a FIXED (not expiring) DAMAGE ABSORPTION (in TQ, there were 2 forms of it)

Are you wanting a shield like mechanic that when activated allows for you to take damage? I guess something like vaal determination or something would be fitting. Although you can do vaal grace.

"

You will say me: play TQ then. I still play it nowaday. Why TQ, so? For a simple reason: for make understand how much HEAVY are the lacks of PoE defense wise, a game that i still play only for the fun of programming builds (trust me: i have more fun in the "poe builder" internet site than on game)

I think PoE has the defensive abilities in game, problem is building up enough for certain builds are neigh impossible after 2.0. But prior to 2.0 everyone had "great" defenses. Still with the addition of things like whispering ice, divination cards for certain things like enhance, support characters can be incredibly powerful to allow builds that otherwise struggle with certain content to be able to do it.


My question is what exactly are you wanting GGG to add when they have so many defensive options already?

Evasion
Dodge
Block
Spell Block
Arrow dancing (rather bad, but can be useful)
Armor
Fortify
Arctic Armor (surprisingly not that good for casters since the change to mana reservation)
Chaos Golem
Life
Life Regen
Leech (although pretty crap in 2.0)
LGOH
ES
Endurance Charges
Immortal Call
Vaal Immortal Call
Curses
Chilled Ground

Look, there are no billions of players for PoE, so not billions complain. Actually, I do not hear a lot of complaints at all - and if, they usually focus on three bosses: Desert, Phantasmagoria and Malformation, all of which are pretty overtuned, so not very good examples. How do you do against other bosses? Just skip the ones that suck.

Other than that, I have a build that reaches 100% fire resistance with flask. You know what? It is safe, and really boring. I can take out the Crematorium boss with ease, actually, like, beyond ease. It cannot damage me (usually a pretty hard boss). Titan quest sounds like a pretty safe game, but I actually love challenging gameplay. Not overtuned gameplay like the Malformation or Phantasmagoria or Desert bosses, but challenging play. Making it easier would just make it more boring for me.

And I am pretty sure I am not the only one who thinks like that.

So, just ignore Phantasmagoria boss, and maybe some others (Orchard sucks as well), self-cast some Endurance Charges and be a happy camper. Really, the game is not that hard. Even with less expensive gear.

"

goetzjam wrote:

@Wispo

"

Not salty, SAD. Yes sad, because i'm an experienced player of these types of games and trust me... i have NEVER seen a game stupidly lacking of GOOD defences like this.

I don't think PoE lacks good defenses, they just don't work as well as they used to.

"

-Mobs that one shot you even with 86% res (in titan quest, at 80% cap, only ONE boss in the ENTIRE game was still dangerous with elemental)

Mobs aren't 1 shotting you with that much res specific combination of mods and\or bosses can do that.

"

-Mobs that one shot you with physical (in Titan quest, there was TWO methods of competely avoid melee, non AoE, physical damage... they were A PAIN IN THE ASS to obtain, but at difference of PoE, THEY WERE THERE)

Again mobs don't do this specific mods and combination of things must happen for this to happen. You mention avoid damage, PoE had CWDT\ec\IC\ID, it was broken as fuck, you cannot deny that. I'd rather see immortal call removed from the combo and allow for enduring cry to still be in it (as that was showcased when the combo was revealed)

"

-Mobs that fires, and in large groups, millions of projectiles (in Titan quest, there was the possibility, ANOTHER MEGA PAIN IN THE ASS, to reach 100% projectile avoid)

If your an evasion character and you take acro and arrow dancing you won't get hit by a projectile, especially if you have a decent amount of armor. You can also manually move out of the way from projectiles in PoE, not sure about titan quest.

"

-Total absence of a BASICAL defense in these types of games: THE RACIAL DAMAGE REDUCTION (i have suggested them, but they didn't hear me.... because if people die less, they have less time to pop out the new chapters before people's balls break and they live and stop to buy those annoying demons that screams in the cityes -.-)

You can get damage reduction in PoE not sure exactly what your complaint here is. Max res reduces the amount of elemental damage you take, armor reduces the physical damage you take, block\dodge\evade allows you to negate the damage completely.

"

-Total absence of a FIXED (not expiring) DAMAGE ABSORPTION (in TQ, there were 2 forms of it)

Are you wanting a shield like mechanic that when activated allows for you to take damage? I guess something like vaal determination or something would be fitting. Although you can do vaal grace.

"

You will say me: play TQ then. I still play it nowaday. Why TQ, so? For a simple reason: for make understand how much HEAVY are the lacks of PoE defense wise, a game that i still play only for the fun of programming builds (trust me: i have more fun in the "poe builder" internet site than on game)

I think PoE has the defensive abilities in game, problem is building up enough for certain builds are neigh impossible after 2.0. But prior to 2.0 everyone had "great" defenses. Still with the addition of things like whispering ice, divination cards for certain things like enhance, support characters can be incredibly powerful to allow builds that otherwise struggle with certain content to be able to do it.


My question is what exactly are you wanting GGG to add when they have so many defensive options already?

Evasion
Dodge
Block
Spell Block
Arrow dancing (rather bad, but can be useful)
Armor
Fortify
Arctic Armor (surprisingly not that good for casters since the change to mana reservation)
Chaos Golem
Life
Life Regen
Leech (although pretty crap in 2.0)
LGOH
ES
Endurance Charges
Immortal Call
Vaal Immortal Call
Curses
Chilled Ground

No ones wants invincibility. Me myself, back when the combo cwdt immortal call worked, have always REFUSED to use this. Because a REAL hardcore player like me (not some one that just self-proclaim himself hardcore, but one minute after is shielding himself like a chicken in immortal call) prefers, after ah hard hard hard work, to reach a monstruous defense, but not invincibility.

Some examples of HAAAAAAAAAAAAARD earned good defences in titan quest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxVpMFoc6YE (racial damage reduction)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c6J3LoEIec (racial damage reduction + projectile dodging)

Is there anything that good in poe? NO

We have only one shots, and the 90% of player base cutted out from the real good items (and, so builds)

"

Char1983 wrote:

Look, there are no billions of players for PoE, so not billions complain. Actually, I do not hear a lot of complaints at all - and if, they usually focus on three bosses: Desert, Phantasmagoria and Malformation, all of which are pretty overtuned, so not very good examples. How do you do against other bosses? Just skip the ones that suck.

Other than that, I have a build that reaches 100% fire resistance with flask. You know what? It is safe, and really boring. I can take out the Crematorium boss with ease, actually, like, beyond ease. It cannot damage me (usually a pretty hard boss). Titan quest sounds like a pretty safe game, but I actually love challenging gameplay. Not overtuned gameplay like the Malformation or Phantasmagoria or Desert bosses, but challenging play. Making it easier would just make it more boring for me.

And I am pretty sure I am not the only one who thinks like that.

So, just ignore Phantasmagoria boss, and maybe some others (Orchard sucks as well), self-cast some Endurance Charges and be a happy camper. Really, the game is not that hard. Even with less expensive gear.

Desert overtuned? O.o That archer that copyes himself? It's super easy with regen, but without can be annoying
Titan quest was not safe, there were many bosses (barmanu, toxeus, hydra etc) and many mobs (dactyls, sand wraith, hydradon etc) really dangerous. Simply, at difference than in poe, there were EFFECTIVE defenses against them. Obtainable after an HARD work, but they certainly WERE THERE. In poe, instead, they... ARE NOT PRESENTS :/

I think you're complaining primarily because that boss is new.

People complained the hell out of Piety and Dominus and such before too. Then they got used to it and know they're dangerous.

"

Wispo wrote:

No ones wants invincibility. Me myself, back when the combo cwdt immortal call worked, have always REFUSED to use this. Because a REAL hardcore player like me (not some one that just self-proclaim himself hardcore, but one minute after is shielding himself like a chicken in immortal call) prefers, after ah hard hard hard work, to reach a monstruous defense, but not invincibility.

Some examples of HAAAAAAAAAAAAARD earned good defences in titan quest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxVpMFoc6YE (racial damage reduction)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c6J3LoEIec (racial damage reduction + projectile dodging)

Is there anything that good in poe? NO

We have only one shots, and the 90% of player base cutted out from the real good items (and, so builds)

Except that first video you shown is just that, there is enough % damage reduction and life regen to be at 0 risk of deing in that case.

If you didn't use cwdt before 2.0, then you should be better prepared for the more difficult defensive options you have in 2.0, but it really seems like you aren't.

TBH I think we've argued in the past regarding your comparison of this other game and PoE, they are both "ARPG" but the design of the game is significantly different.

As for racial damage reduction, PoE has items like Queen of the Forest

−(50 to 40) Physical Damage taken when hit by Animals



Items like this is % based phys reduction:


Stuff like this with % damage reduction (doesn't work on degens) Although its not as good after changes to EB.



Even things like this is a decent budget option for certain builds:




Much more of a niche item and working around the downside without party play is a bit harsh, but this item can be quite strong:




Hell even have flask for option:





If I can play a character to 94 without getting 1 shot (until I did get 1 shot :/) then people should be able to do the same. Last I remember you weren't a HC player (as in the league HC) so an occasional death shouldn't be that big of a deal.

I'm just doubfounded really that you think there isn't any good defensive options for PoE players. I played in this 1 month league for a week and a half or so (until I stupidly walked into a huge pack of obelisk (sparks)) But playing with a support curser actually makes the game super easy, had I actually reacted properly I wouldn't of died. Still, saying PoE doesn't have good defensive options is just wrong, I listed numerous forms of defensive options in a previous post and named a good amount of items here in this post.

"

elitedesolator wrote:

I think you're complaining primarily because that boss is new.

People complained the hell out of Piety and Dominus and such before too. Then they got used to it and know they're dangerous.

No, i complain one shots. A member of the diablo 3 team sayed that one shots must NOT exist, because is a stupid and USELESSLY punitive mechanic

When a mob or boss is dangerous, there should be a good and viable form of defense against it, and not the useless defences that the friend Goetjam talks about. I repeat his post:

Evasion (that thing that, if entropy hates you, you are oneshotted? good defence!!!!)

Dodge (that thing that, in exchange of only 40-50% dodge, cripples ALL your other defences? good defense!!!!)

Block
Spell Block (those things that, even at 75%, are more random that a lottery? good defenses!!!!)

Arrow dancing (that thing STUPIDLY nerfed for giving the sugar cube to crying supporters and that once was THE ONLY great defense in this game? good defense!!!!)

Armor (that thing that does THE OPPOSITE of what a SANE mind would expect, aka the harder the hits, the worst the protection? good defence!!!)

Fortify (that thing that removes only the 20% of the 539537573763 of average damage of a white mob? good defense!!!)

Arctic Armor (that thing that protects 13% against physical but only 12% against fire, because 13% fire "would be overpowered"? good defence, expecially because doesn't work IN MOVEMENT)

Chaos Golem (that toy that reduces only 4% of damage, and only physical damage? good defense!!!)

Life (that thing that, if you have not a LEGACY SUPER COSTLY kaom heart, is never sufficient? good defense!!!)

Life Regen (that thing never sufficient unless you have 10k+ es plus 90% of regen points allocated? DECENT defense, but only for es users)

Leech (although pretty crap in 2.0 YOU SAID IT MATE)

LGOH (DECENT)

ES (decent WITH REGEN)

Endurance Charges (those that you must invest to, only for having 28% reduction, and only physical? good defense!!!)

Immortal Call
Vaal Immortal Call (for kids who love to think of themselves like the hardcore gamers that will never be... pathetic)

Curses (DECENT enfeeble)

Chilled Ground (yes yes, very useful to try to slow down a mob that is offscreen)

The number of defences DOESNT count as an argument in favour to poe. the tragedy, is that only 10% of them are somewhat useful, let alone viable

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

Wispo wrote:

No ones wants invincibility. Me myself, back when the combo cwdt immortal call worked, have always REFUSED to use this. Because a REAL hardcore player like me (not some one that just self-proclaim himself hardcore, but one minute after is shielding himself like a chicken in immortal call) prefers, after ah hard hard hard work, to reach a monstruous defense, but not invincibility.

Some examples of HAAAAAAAAAAAAARD earned good defences in titan quest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxVpMFoc6YE (racial damage reduction)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c6J3LoEIec (racial damage reduction + projectile dodging)

Is there anything that good in poe? NO

We have only one shots, and the 90% of player base cutted out from the real good items (and, so builds)

Except that first video you shown is just that, there is enough % damage reduction and life regen to be at 0 risk of deing in that case.

If you didn't use cwdt before 2.0, then you should be better prepared for the more difficult defensive options you have in 2.0, but it really seems like you aren't.

TBH I think we've argued in the past regarding your comparison of this other game and PoE, they are both "ARPG" but the design of the game is significantly different.

As for racial damage reduction, PoE has items like Queen of the Forest

−(50 to 40) Physical Damage taken when hit by Animals

Items like this is % based phys reduction:

Stuff like this with % damage reduction (doesn't work on degens) Although its not as good after changes to EB.

Even things like this is a decent budget option for certain builds:

Much more of a niche item and working around the downside without party play is a bit harsh, but this item can be quite strong:

Hell even have flask for option:

If I can play a character to 94 without getting 1 shot (until I did get 1 shot :/) then people should be able to do the same. Last I remember you weren't a HC player (as in the league HC) so an occasional death shouldn't be that big of a deal.

I'm just doubfounded really that you think there isn't any good defensive options for PoE players. I played in this 1 month league for a week and a half or so (until I stupidly walked into a huge pack of obelisk (sparks)) But playing with a support curser actually makes the game super easy, had I actually reacted properly I wouldn't of died. Still, saying PoE doesn't have good defensive options is just wrong, I listed numerous forms of defensive options in a previous post and named a good amount of items here in this post.

Queen of the forest? What is 50 damage against a rare devurer or chimeral in a map? Nothing
Coil? I have it, and a legacy one too. At 75% lightning res, is just around 30% reduction.... laughable in this game, expecially in 2.0
Taste of hate? Good with coil, but only for a few seconds and only against physical. In TQ instead, and in many other games (arpg or even japan rpg) that i have played, there was ALWAYS some PERMANET defenses. Permanent, and even EFFECTIVE

And now, go you against that boss that i have shown, and let's see how much you endure :P In more serious games than poe, HARD WORK ---REPAYS---. Here, hard work brings only to alteration shards, useless uniques, one shots and even more deaths, because overtuned mobs and USELESS DEFENSES

@Wispo

"

No, i complain one shots. A member of the diablo 3 team sayed that one shots must NOT exist, because is a stupid and USELESSLY punitive mechanic

I think you mean said. But using D3 and mechanics as an argument won't likely get you far here. D3 also has a mechanic that allows for you to "cheat death" every min or so for every single build\class.

"

When a mob or boss is dangerous, there should be a good and viable form of defense against it, and not the useless defences that the friend Goetjam talks about. I repeat his post:

If they were truly useless, people wouldn't use them would they?

"

Evasion (that thing that, if entropy hates you, you are oneshotted? good defence!!!!)

Arguably a lot worst in 2.0, when paired with ranged attacks\builds you can dodge (manually) or evade quite a lot of things. People in SC play evasion builds to much success.

"

Dodge (that thing that, in exchange of only 40-50% dodge, cripples ALL your other defences? good defense!!!!)

1/2 armor and es and less block in exchange for 40% dodge and 30% spell dodge can be quite good.

"

Block
Spell Block (those things that, even at 75%, are more random that a lottery? good defenses!!!!)

Block is guaranteed damage reduction, not only that it blocks all instances of the damage, unlike other games like D3 which only blocks a certain amount of the damage. Max block builds are among the tankiest builds in PoE, not quite sure why you are complaing about randomness.

"

Arrow dancing (that thing STUPIDLY nerfed for giving the sugar cube to crying supporters and that once was THE ONLY great defense in this game? good defense!!!!)

So a defensive option that required 1 skill point and no downsides is the idea of a "good defensive option"?

"

Armor (that thing that does THE OPPOSITE of what a SANE mind would expect, aka the harder the hits, the worst the protection? good defence!!!)

It still reduces damage and is worth stacking, just can't be the only form of mitigation.

"

Fortify (that thing that removes only the 20% of the 539537573763 of average damage of a white mob? good defense!!!)

What white mob do you think does that much damage? Considering almost every melee build tries to use fortify you know its pretty freaking good, not only that other builds try to utilize it with things like whirling blades and daggers (spell casters\ranged\ect)

"

Arctic Armor (that thing that protects 13% against physical but only 12% against fire, because 13% fire "would be overpowered"? good defence, expecially because doesn't work IN MOVEMENT)

AA actually mitigates against the hard hits that armor doesn't do well against. Complaining about 1% fire res mitigation is kinda asinine if you ask me. It doesn't work with movement simply because it would be overpowered with cyclone, which sucks because casters that want to kite don't benefit when they need it the most. One can argue this is better for melee\ranged classes, less good for casters now. Some mana regen defensive option should be added into the game, that works while moving.

"

Chaos Golem (that toy that reduces only 4% of damage, and only physical damage? good defense!!!)

That is equivalent to an endurance charge of damage reduction with no investment other then 1 link needed. People use this with CWDT and don't even bother resummoning it.

"

Life (that thing that, if you have not a LEGACY SUPER COSTLY kaom heart, is never sufficient? good defense!!!)

I had 7500 life on my marauder in tempest, that is without legacy gear and with eleron rings and not perfect stuff. You can get quite a bit of life if you really want to.

"

Life Regen (that thing never sufficient unless you have 10k+ es plus 90% of regen points allocated? DECENT defense, but only for es users)

Its actually better for life based characters, especially if you can pot as well. For ES based characters you put yourself in a severe disadvantage due to the inability to pot back up to full and rely on either ZO regen or recharge delay.

"

Leech (although pretty crap in 2.0 YOU SAID IT MATE)

I mean yeah, still helps vs packs, just not useful vs bosses.

LGOH (DECENT)

ES (decent WITH REGEN)

"

Endurance Charges (those that you must invest to, only for having 28% reduction, and only physical? good defense!!!)

Yes a defensive option that requires investment, an interesting concept right? Only physical? I mean that is what you are complaing about getting 1 shot from. As an ES user I bet physical damage is your biggest weakness.

"

Immortal Call
Vaal Immortal Call (for kids who love to think of themselves like the hardcore gamers that will never be... pathetic)

Explain your problem with these gems?

"

Curses (DECENT enfeeble)

As well as temp chains.

"

Chilled Ground (yes yes, very useful to try to slow down a mob that is offscreen)

Are you implying that you get killed from offscreen mobs?

"

The number of defences DOESNT count as an argument in favour to poe. the tragedy, is that only 10% of them are somewhat useful, let alone viable

You are just wrong. We have been through this before though. It takes a combination of defensive options in order to make a good character. You seem to think ES is actually good, funny enough most people think its pretty dumpster now, who do you think is right? I'd guess it would be those going life based or hybrid builds in this meta that is right, not he who refuses to do anything other then ES based builds.

You limit yourself so hard being an ES based character, especially a CI character. No acro, no evasion, no armor, no AA (or if you do your losing out on damage or something else) No health pots for instant heals.


You bash those options when you can't even use most of them as your character, see that is the problem your inability to try something else, even though 2.0 has pushed everyone into life based characters you refuse to move with the pack.

Out of the options listed you can only do the following as your character:

AA
Chaos Golem
Some endurance charges
Life Regen
Curses
(totems, forgot about this one)

Out of the suggested items to try out the only one you can really use is taste of hate.

"

In TQ instead, and in many other games (arpg or even japan rpg) that i have played, there was ALWAYS some PERMANET defenses. Permanent, and even EFFECTIVE

And now, go you against that boss that i have shown, and let's see how much you endure :P In more serious games than poe, HARD WORK ---REPAYS---. Here, hard work brings only to alteration shards, useless uniques, one shots and even more deaths, because overtuned mobs and USELESS DEFENSES

In PoE there is as well, however they are less powerful then the temporary effects that require player interaction. One could argue it takes skill to maintain these effects in PoE and as a hardcore player like yourself, you should be able to maintain these effects.

Over 1/2 the defensive options I listed are automatic. All the items except the taste of hate are all automatic.

Over 100 people got to level 100 in warbands\tempest combined, in arguably the hardest version of PoE (since the original closed beta) If people are leveling and utilizing these defensive options to their benefit, then why can't you?

To me this is quite simple as you absolutely refuse to use any build other then what you want, which is fine, but you need to understand not being a life based character in this meta is dangerous and expensive, neither of which I think you can afford to play as. 11k es isn't shit if you have 0 armor or other physical mitigation, you can't even pot off the hits like a life based caster does right now. This is a fundamental player problem and one GGG cannot fix, this is a "you" problem, not the game. Can GGG make some changes like re-adding a mana regen based defensive option, adding some additional mitigation options for casters, sure, but playing as a melee or ranged (bow) character right now is really strong, even things like summoners are really strong, the only playstyle truly suffering in 2.0 is ES based caster, which seems to be all that you play.

"

Wispo wrote:

...billions of people complain...

Oh man, I wish billions of people played PoE. We'd have twenty acts by now.

Also, you weren't getting one shot, you were getting spiked. Getting one shot basically only happens with the Vaal Oversoul slam, Malachai's teleport, or a jumbo skeleton with extra physical damage and powerful crits. Getting spiked just means you were hit many times in rapid succession, often by critical hits.

If you're getting one shot, avoid it.
(One shots do not come from off screen, ever, and usually have a wind up time)

If you're getting spiked, get better acquainted with those encounters.
(What pattern do the attacks follow? What can mitigate those hits?)
And don't ever stop moving.
(Attacks don't hit you if you're not in their way)