Exp loss due to death's - Must read (Suggestion)

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MrTremere wrote:

Our complaints about the experience penalty upon character death being too frustrating are legitimate, and it is particularly annoying to see that people wouldn't even acknowledge that.

I've never seen a legitimate argument presented by the people that want it reduced, before lockstep and massive improvements in predictive mode people used the desync as an excuse, what is left now? Less defensive options?

The simple fact of the matter is it wasn't that long ago that GGG, Chris specifically said the penalty was fine.

If death wasn't "punishing" or was "meaningless" then we are essentially playing the same ARPG that any other game can put out, just looks different and has things like links\skillgems. Honestly out of everything people can argue to change about the game this seems like the most insignificant and the largest "complaint" that will likely have no changes. But I'm always open to hear a good argument on to why the people that want it reduced or removed are for such a change. As a SC player turned HC (out of necessity really as the SC economy is terrible in comparison) I don't think people honestly should die that often, if they do they are playing recklessly and should indeed be punished, that or they don't have a good enough understanding to make a build of their own and cannot simply follow the instructions from the 100's of builds on the class forums.

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No. You don't acknowledge any legitimate argument. There's a big difference here.

There hasn't been one presented, nothing new has arrived in regards to the typical "unfair", takes too much time, ect. By all means show me one that is both original and I should spend time reading as I haven't seen either.

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Mark Rosewater says that mana screw in MtG is a great thing. You don't have to take his word for it.

Not sure your point here.

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Dammit, will you please stop it with the straw men and red herrings?
I acknowledge that there needs to be some penalty upon character death. The current one is simply inadequate and fails on many levels.

The current one is harsh enough later and forgiving enough early on, nothing needs to change about it not only would it be a waste of developer time to change it, its unnecessary to do so. This whole mentality that you can't level or its unfair is just bullshit. The game was designed to be a hardcore (yes hardcore) ARPG that has a more forgiving standard league(s). The whole idea that this game should cater to players it wasn't intended for was also wrong. People use arguments like this other game does it well (or not at all in some cases) just further show my point that the homogenization of games, more importantly the homogenization of PoE will be its death.

Poe is a niche game, not everyone wants the complexity it provides or agrees with the design principles laid down, yet for some reason this community has players like yourself that argue this change and will do so until your grave it seems like. When asked in Q\A in April (i believe somewhere around there) Chris said they think the penalty is fine. I only mention this because no matter how many more times you or others post, unless you come up with some crazy new idea or fundamentally discuss why it needs to be changed, you won't sway players like me and if you cannot sway someone like me how exactly are you going to sway the game designer that strait up said "its fine"

I posted in the legacy items thread that 69 people got to level 100 in warbands and 30 something in tempest, that means in less then 3 months over 100 people got to level 100 in temp leagues starting from nothing. Not only is that probably the highest amount ever from temp leagues, its also probably the shortest time. So you have to ask yourself how can you argue that the penalty is flawed in so many ways when others have found ways around it, starting from nothing.

Ultimately though you don't have to convince me that it needs changed, you need to convince GGG that a core principle of which the game is based around (being a hardcore ARPG) should be changed basically for no other reason then players like you think the non perma death league should be more forgiving.

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MrTremere wrote:

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MrTremere wrote:

The current penalty fails its purpose badly : it doesn't do its job properly when it matters the most, then suddenly becomes a brick wall for anyone who is willing to take any risk.

1) In cruel and merciless, where it should stop you and force you to reconsider bad choices you made, it has no effect whatsoever, because players can simply zerg through whatever content they don't manage, and get the missing experience a few areas later. There's nothing stopping them from getting to the maps with a really bad build, they just have to zerg enough.

2) In maps, if you care about leveling, it pushes you out of any difficult content. You don't even attempt anything hard anymore. I used to try all map bosses at the beginning, now I'll just skip anything I'm not 100% sure I can kill without dying once. Malformation Piety? I tried her once, just to see how hard she was, and now I won't come close to her ever again. I almost failed to see my Arc build had become strong enough to deal with Dominus without any risk, because I was too scared to even go check him. And I would skip the Vaal Rain of Arrows chicken too if I hadn't devised a 100% safe strategy against him.

You know, I currently have a very crappy build in the 1 month league that I am zerging through the content. Yet I am still getting forward almost as quickly as I would with a non-crappy build, because the penalty has almost no effect on the character's ability to go forward while still levelling at a decent pace.
On the other side, I have pretty decent builds in standard. Yet I'll skip a lot of bosses, to the point of not experimenting their patterns at all, and not knowing when a character is capable of winning against a boss it previously didn't stand a chance against.

Between this and the fact that ANY character that doesn't need any XP can die as much as it wants, there's clearly something wrong with the way the penalty currently works.

Now, I know that you'll find an excuse to not acknowledge what I said and keep your delusions of other players simply wanting to make the game a snore-fest, so I'll be in a thread without trolls like you so that I can keep whatever calm I may still have. You win this round.



This is why I let the other thread die out, no discussion is possible on this matter.

Getting to maps isn't a challenge like it used to be, there are many zones outside of maps that are more difficult then maps themselves (at least the first few maps)


1) This is mainly due to the changes that came with act 4, but was still possible in act 3. A new player won't know when to zerg and when not to to reach the maximum effectiveness of progression, yet you also neglect you still have that feeling of frustration even if you are able to zerg through it. GGG only made zerging easier in softcore due to the ability to repawn in the same zone. Clearly this isn't a concern of GGG, why else would they make this change, if anything else GGG might have encouraged it through this change.

2) You can level to 85 fairly easily outside of maps, doing dried lake runs nets quite a bit of XP. So if your objective is purely to level this is not only your cheapest bet, its your best bet. If you aren't attempting difficult content then you are missing out on drops, especially +2s if you are skipping the difficult bosses. If anything this argument proves the point the penalty is working as intended as you are making a sacrifice, either reroll the map mod to mods you can do the boss or don't reroll and miss out or don't take the risk associated with doing the map boss. Poe is all about making the choices, you are not seeing how the XP penalty is forcing you to make a choice?

Some map bosses are just going to be more challenging then others, you must then also look at the map mods and see if its worth the risk. In hardcore people do this as well and obviously they have the ultimate death penalty. So hardcore players can progress in content without zerging, can do decide map bosses\mods they want to do, yet for some reason you think the death penalty in SC is forcing players from making those same choices? No it reinforces those same choices to be made.


I don't doubt you have a very crappy build :P but that is besides the point, the point is players that know they can zerg and level up elsewhere are already experienced enough to not get frustrated and they "believe" their build will be better endgame and just suffer with the now. New players don't know that and will look or ask for help or just leave, not knowing that they needed to path more life nodes while leveling not just DPS nodes or whatever it may be.


If you are skipping bosses in standard, then you've already made the calculated assessment that you want to level more then find items, clearly its much less important to find items or maps in standard, due to how items aren't that important in standard. If anything standard is almost always about leveling rather then finding items, at least its largely that because you can't just find items that will sell on standard like you can in temp leagues so your only form of progression you can measure when playing in standard is that XP gain.


How exactly is a character that doesn't care about XP deing multiple times mean there is something wrong with the penalty. Doesn't that mean it is working as intended? Seeing as the death penalty is an XP loss, instead of something like less MF or some other penalty these characters have made the decision to not care about character progression thru leveling, but rather care more about attempting a challenge, gathering items or progressing in other ways.



I don't need to make an excuse to to acknowledge what you've said, I can just argue to why your arguments are wrong. "trolls like me" Why is it everytime that people suggest a change and people that defend the way it is now, why are they the trolls, why aren't you the troll for suggesting it needs changed after multiple thread discussions and a Q\A answer not that long ago? Perhaps it is truly players like yourself that is the troll, not a player like myself that points out the flaws in your argument?

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This is why I let the other thread die out, no discussion is possible on this matter.

Because I can counter every single point you've made with why your argument is just wrong. Not only is it wrong there hasn't been this all better idea that both sides can agree upon that would enforce a penalty that is both fair and works in all circumstances. More importantly no discussion is possible because no discussion is really needed, Chris left it as a 1 line response back when he did the Q\A, if he had though the topic deserved more discussion he would have said more.

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Boem wrote:

It's my lvl 89 ranger actually, just checked my character list.

"Joanaskinfullospromise"

And that character is from the 1-week SFL league. (i don't play permanent league's)

So that character was running 77/78 maps with 120% in the old mapping system, with self-found gear and got to lvl 89.8 in the time period of 1 week.

Anything else?

Skill and observation is the only limitation a character has if he's not playing what you call a "100% tank" to avoid danger.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : something being considered impractical by you doesn't mean it is not possible or not an option.

edit2 :

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HeroOfExile wrote:

i guess any "its fine" guys never had a char above 90.

Feel free to check my character list, my profile has never been hidden. Then imagine roughly 40+ chars deleted between lvl 80-90.

Your character list IS HIDDEN... So long in forums and even you do not know that it is hidden by default XD

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Actkqk wrote:

Your character list IS HIDDEN... So long in forums and even you do not know that it is hidden by default XD

fixed, i remember they implemented this as the mandatory default and i must have not bothered to change it since then. Always assumed it was public.

Enjoy i suppose?

Peace,

-Boem-

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MrTremere wrote:

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I_NO wrote:

What? Fuck that lose everything.

Why?
I mean, pushing for a much more punishing system without bringing in any argument as to why it should be this way just feels like a huge troll. Would you happen to not be a dinosaur?

That's how it goes with many posters left on poe forums these days.. Mostly troll posts based on emotion and blind conviction with little reasoning behind.

This whole forum has turned into a shitty place where the same people posts the same stuff in every post, to anyone suggesting differently.

It's all about emotion and not very reasoning and never questioning self or properly considering the thing that was brought up - leading to troll posts destructive to discussion.

Sadly, these are the people mostly left on poe forums these days, posting the same thoughtless nonsense day in and day out, circlejerking each other. Not that they are bad persons or i have anything against them on a personal level.. but the posts are 80% troll and rage emo, just the same nonsense and the same absolute lack of understanding and not using reason but pure conviction.

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goetzjam wrote:

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MrTremere wrote:

Our complaints about the experience penalty upon character death being too frustrating are legitimate, and it is particularly annoying to see that people wouldn't even acknowledge that.

I've never seen a legitimate argument presented by the people that want it reduced, before lockstep and massive improvements in predictive mode people used the desync as an excuse, what is left now? Less defensive options?

The simple fact of the matter is it wasn't that long ago that GGG, Chris specifically said the penalty was fine.

If death wasn't "punishing" or was "meaningless" then we are essentially playing the same ARPG that any other game can put out, just looks different and has things like links\skillgems. Honestly out of everything people can argue to change about the game this seems like the most insignificant and the largest "complaint" that will likely have no changes. But I'm always open to hear a good argument on to why the people that want it reduced or removed are for such a change. As a SC player turned HC (out of necessity really as the SC economy is terrible in comparison) I don't think people honestly should die that often, if they do they are playing recklessly and should indeed be punished, that or they don't have a good enough understanding to make a build of their own and cannot simply follow the instructions from the 100's of builds on the class forums.

That's because you have a reading comprehension issue then.

It can be as simply said as this:

It is demotivating. It destroys only - for no gain. The people who have issues with dying will never compete for the number 1 spot. In essence it serves no purpose only destroys the game for tons of people.

ARPG have hardcore mode for the epeen people and those who really wanna see who the best is, and softcore mode for those who just want to have fun. Do the math on that.

Furthermore it's form is bad where it's okay below level 90, and 90+ it becomes outrageously balanced.

It interacts with the xp gain penalties and huge costs of maintaining high maps in a way that leads to a deadly combo of ragequit's - again for no gain, these people will never compete for first spot.

It destroys builds, that again will never compete for first spots, but are plain out destroyed in terms of fun - again for no gain.

These are just some of the simple arguments. Have you ever actually considered that this form of death penalty add's nothing to the game but destroys it for some people?