CI leech needs fixing,

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Aim_Deep wrote:

I do have some like AA, 12% block and ofc flask mitigation liek everyone else. But the whole premise of CI is sponge and LL return build. Otherwise no point in playing it.

No, that is the premise of CI-GR-Life Leech, not the premise of CI.

For instance, Life Leech is irrelevant to CI-ZO builds, and of varying importance to CI-ZO-GR builds.

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I am not arguing that CI-Life Leech builds (the topic of the thread) are not in trouble; I'm not playing one currently and cannot comment on that.

I am simply pointing out that one shouldn't mistake any problems CI-Life Leech builds may have for general problems of CI builds as there are many different types of CI builds, not all of which rely on Life Leech.

Remember before GR when CI was still really really good, and your regen was actually getting out of combat for a while? Pepperidge farm remembers.

Seriously though, out leaching isn't the only way to survive, you can just let your shield regen take care of it. Also this thing https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1171890/page/1

DyNess's character has been mentioned in quite a few threads to say 'CI is OK'.

Did you look at his gear?
900+ES chest, 300+ES rares in other slots.
Running Lvl 26 Discipline and 26 Vitality.

....
1480 average damage firestorm, lol.

You can't hold up that character as an example because his build is a complete outlier... one could make a life build with 20%+ life regen per second and over 10K life with much higher armor, with the right gear.

The regen CI builds only really work for casters, not for melees. Melee CI got pretty much screwed, unless you have mirror gear, then you can oneshot on reflect.

From the examples shown CI can work with pretty much mirror tier gear, but that's not how it should be balanced at all.

Basically, stop using outlier, mirror gear builds to justify the current state of CI. It doesn't work at all. A typical, even highish geared build isn't going to work very well.

Remember ES was never meant to tank damage, it was meant to provide a buffer and you were supposed to get out of the way and let it regen. It's not blue health, it's something different entirely.

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Char1983 wrote:

Wait, you are saying that you can tank Uber Atziri in the current state of the game, but at the same time you are saying that ES is too weak? Hmm.

The only thing allowing me to do that is the additional defense of fortify, the whole point of that post is that CI's resort to the same old Facetank/Leech playstyle yet again this patch because there was literally no other possibilities for reliable defense that were introduced for us. It's not that ES is weak, but CI's defenses are weak. And if we're getting narrowed down to being sponge builds again, I am pretty sure 100% that Caster/Elemental Leech has just hit rock bottom for 2.0

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j33bus wrote:

Remember before GR when CI was still really really good, and your regen was actually getting out of combat for a while? Pepperidge farm remembers.

Preach on, brother.

I love how ppl are point out the all mirrors "solution" to CI - OJ's flicker can face tank UBER too got 2000 exalts laying around? Nevermind he's not a caster so can get TWICE the leech % and 4-5x DPS
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1388344

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OJ8_Graz wrote:

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Peterlerock wrote:

The stupidly easy "I have a massive ES pool and leech, I facetank anything" times are over.

For other people it is. But I disagree on this one :>.

Also the other "mitigations" you mentioned are ridiculous to even suggest for CI to take for a solid build in end-game. Armor? along with stacking ES with pure ES items to reach an acceptable ES of 10k at least? Yea I don't think so. Even EC/IC is overnerfed now. Also Block? this isn't 1.2 anymore. And the one that left me staring at the screen for a good minute - Grace. Evade on CI.. Holy shit man..

why would you be using pure es items if you wanted to stack armour as a ci? I have 10,500 es on my ci dagger witch, using a 1,470 armour saintly chainmail and an Aegis Aurora kite shield, rumis to cap block, I use 2 of them. I have a dagger very similar to yours (dragon hunger), I dont have 400k dps flicker, I have 100k dps reave because I actually built defense into my build beyond just 10k es. I have zo with enough regen to still be able to regen es through bloodrage, 4.6%. Id have more dps than that still if I had mirrored jewellery like yours to go along with the mirrored dagger.

100k dps is still enough to slaughter maps like a hot knife through butter, you dont need multiple times that dps to have a solid build in endgame. You chose to have excessive dps at the expense of not having armour, not being able to have positive regen while using bloodrage, not having an aegis shield. Its not ridiculous to suggest these things for CI, its perfectly achievable. You chose to go glass cannon style CI and you can still facetank uber atziri? Forgive me if I dont see a problem there.

Just to see what sort of stats you could get I respecced a witch to be evasion ci after the patch, wasnt a serious character I was just curious... I had grace + hatred, 10k es, 10k evasion, and this was using a carnal armour that had a life roll and an ev/es hybrid shield with a life roll, with a proper flat sandwich carnal + spiked shield I could have dropped grace and run disc for crazy amounts of es. Evasion works better with es than armour does if youre not using an aegis, why would you laugh at the idea of evasion with ci? Its perfectly viable.

I dont see pure anything being that great at any point, I wouldnt play pure es, pure armour or pure evasion, I stack layers on everything I do because its always more effective, without fail, always has been. My aegis dagger witch has been going since open beta, my hybrid armour + evasion life builds have been with me since open beta. No meta shift has ever changed the principals of what they do theyve been strong for 2 years straight because I never put all my eggs in 1 basket, Im not relying on 1 layer of defense and then saying "oh fuck" when that one thing goes from op to not so op. I dont shit my pants when the 'meta' shifts from evasion to armour because most of my life builds have evasion AND armour, have always had both and have always been stronger than builds that use 1 or the other. Armour is better than Es now? Well I have both, and Ill still have both when the tables flip and Es is better than armour again. People who say "well you cant go es and armour" or "you cant go armour and evasion" or "you cant go evasion and es"... actually yes you can, you could always do that and it was always better to do both. Have the people saying that actually seriously tried it? I feel like they havent.



note this has nothing to do with what aim deep is talking about, as he says attack builds that can stack mad leech from physical is not all there is to ci. I dont really have any position on that front Ive never played ci caster, Ill leave those judgements to those who have.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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j33bus wrote:

Remember before GR when CI was still really really good, and your regen was actually getting out of combat for a while? Pepperidge farm remembers.

Preach on, brother.

They didnt have uber or 80s bosses back then and who the hell want to play like that? Point is many life builds can face tank all those things on the cheap <100ex. Mirrored CI attackers still can. CI caster cant.

Our leech is half because we have no leech on gear cant use blood rage.
Our DPS is less - even with a 7L pledge and highest DPS spell - flame surge GG all crit gear I only manage 175K

175K x 4.1% (LL gem, warlords, doreyanis) = theoretical 7000 max life return per sec. hardly enough. I know because Ive tried in practice too. CI is shit compare to my life casters. Who leech same but have mitgation/dodge/flasks etc all without penalty of playing CI freeze and stun. CI is just not good enough anymore.

As I said on my other post, going hybrid defenses on CI is totally not worth it and even if it is achievable, you cannot get the BEST out of it like life/evade, life/armor builds do. There's a reason why I think Armor and Evade associated with CI is laughable right now because the tree has changed so much that the downsides for CI forces a pure build to be able to get the best out of it I do not want some half-arsed defense that will practically be nonexistent on some occassions. If you ever try to go hybrid you'll lose a huge amount of DPS for some unacceptable effectiveness of these "secondary" defenses. This has been the case ever since they nerfed block in 1.2. Would I want to compromise my build for some 40% chance to evade w/o dodge? Would I allocate a shit ton of passives to block just to get aegis to work (or not work without Rumi's)? No, ofc not.


I have tried many many other ways of defenses in my CI characters to see what goes well with what, and so far, even on this 2.0 patch where they said "everything has changed" I have yet to see a defensive mechanic that will suit CI that I'll let it compromise my pure ES build because it ACTUALLY WORKS. That's why I am and many others are still relying on the DPS/Leech which has turned out to STILL be the best option for defense for CI.