CI leech needs fixing,
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For trappers, totems, or mines I would consider CI as an option. Never eating reflected damage + keepaway style is good for CI.
For summoners I would always keep the Shavronne's Wrappings dream in the back of my mind. For anything which can get damage reflected to it, CI seems much less appealing because recharge can be interrupted by offense. So I'd probably go life. So if you ask me CI doesn't seem screwed, but GR does. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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" CI was at it's best back then. Should it ever return to its former glory, I shall reroll. |
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" ok that made me lol " compromise your pure es... by having everything you have now and then adding a tons of defense on top.... ya ok m8. " that still exists. Former glory of ci without leech where you have to run away and regen, oh the good old days... ya thats still there mate, its called going ci and not taking ghost reaver, zo etc, and the reason you dont play it is because its shit. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
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" It's shit because ES values are way lower than they should be due to GR and ZO. Would you play CI if it were not too difficult to get 20k ES but you couldn't regen or leech? |
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" well, considering Im sacrificing many, many 1000s of es on my ci char to have aegis, leech and regen, I seriously doubt it. Would I play a 12k life (real life) build with no regen or leech? Nope, that wouldnt even fly and Id have life pots. You can take so much damage so quickly if you are not sustaining through regen and/or leech ur screwed, I may not agree with OJ8s take on how effective having 40% evasion is but Im absolutely with him when it comes to leech being one of if not the most essential thing, and I put regen up there too, regen is something I see as close to essential. Only build I ever felt safe with not having regen was my CI witch... because she has aegis and can pot to max block, and even then I found a way to crowbar regen into her spec and it feels a million times better now its there. Theres too many situations where you cant escape, look at a room like malachai, how you gonna run around in there and take 0 damage long enough for es to recharge? Pit boss, jungle valley, mervail, just any old map with flicker mobs, jumping mobs etc. Mobs can hit you for 4k, 5k+ damage in a single thump with devours and frog leapers chasing you to the ends of the earth. I feel like in truly hard content you could end up spending longer running away with 5k es left screaming than your spending fighting back. dont get me wrong I could see a lot of situations where u could absolutely play like that and it would be great but I just feel like I can see too many situations that I have to be able to deal with where it would be a nightmare too. Maybe for a proper ranged caster rather than ci melee like I play it would be more acceptable. But even then picture merv boss room, you go down to 15k, ur fine, but youre not getting es back, then u go down to 10, then to 5, how are you going to get room to recharge? You cant stand your ground a clear the swords and statues because you cant sustain in combat. How are you going to deal with that fight and burning ground? And when the waterworks get turned on in phase 2? You just going to port out? Yet merv is so easy when you can sustain in combat. Maybe im wrong but I feel like I could drop aegis, zo, gr, armour and get 15-20k es already and theres absolutely nothing in my experience thats telling me that would be a good idea over taking 5k damage almost instantly and then being back at 10k es just as quickly through aegis blocking, leeching and zo regen. Maybe I could see myself dropping 1 of those things to do it but not all 3. Ive not tried it though so Im hesitant to just flat out say no way, but my gut is telling me no way. Honestly Id have to try to really give you a solid answer. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
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I'm sure there's a number. If not 20k with average/good investment, then 30k or more. In the way past before GR/ZO, I know it worked. There was a value then (before a lot of the enemy power creep) and it totally worked; you were virtually immune to 1shot, but you had to know how to disengage.
The point is that they can't afford to run that experiment while GR and ZO exist. If they were to try, everyone and their dog would switch over to ES, which is no better than having everyone on life like it is right now. It's what made ES special, and watching GGG turn it into Blue Life over the last few years is probably my #1 design bitch about this game. GR made a vague sense because they wanted CI melee to exist (when by all rights it shouldn't exist). ZO was just out of fucking nowhere and they have never said why they added it or what they were thinking at the time. |
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" You are overlooking a couple of obvious points in your desire to relegate CI-ZO to a novelty build only worth it with mirror worthy gear. 1. Other people have leveled and played with Dy'Ness build in 2.0 without having mirror quality gear. 2. I made my Scionic Flametank CI-ZO-GR build based on Dy'Ness build and I most certainly did not have mirror quality gear in either 1.3 or 2.0. I now have better gear than what I had in the build post for 2.0 start (now hitting to 14000ES, 1820 ES/s, 10K first stage paper Incinerate dps, CWDT20 cursing Warlord's Mark/Enfeeble), up to 70-80% physical DR when all my defensive mechanisms are active at the same time, but it is still nowhere near mirror quality and consists of items commanding prices in chaos or one-digit exalts on poe.trade. 3. Other players in both 2.0 beta as well as 2.0 Tempest, Warband, and Standard, have been leveling with my build variant, and I've overwhelmingly received positive feedback. IN SHORT. CI-GR Leech may be in trouble. CI-ZO, however, is in a pretty good place for caster tanks, as is CI-ZO-GR, so long as people are willing to play to the strengths of CI-ZO. This does not require mirror worthy gear or level 21 gems or corrupted level 4 empowers, but is something that everybody can level in whichever league they want and do well with. CI-ZO for melee tanks is an interesting question and something I personally haven't tried so cannot comment on. It follows that one shouldn't perform the mental gymnastics of jumping from "I think CI-GR Life Leech is in trouble" to "CI is in trouble and needs to be fixed", because there patently are CI builds using regular gear that aren't in trouble at all, and in the case of both mine and Dy'Ness are even better off in 2.0 than in 1.3 because the jewel slots helped us out enormously in strengthening the builds. I suggest you stick to what is the core of the issue on hand and the topic of the thread, The performance of CI-GR-Life Leech, rather than expanding it into territory on which you are on uncertain footing. Last edited by Pi2rEpsilon#4367 on Aug 15, 2015, 11:19:53 AM
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i wonder how many really gave a shot to 'faster ES recharge start' jewels. i have put (using dumpster items and a 'build') EK witch with pretty much no damage, just as an experiment to test ES ZO and ES natural regen (tree is being changed all the time to test stuff, this is my first 2.0 ES char so i want to test this and that)
natural regen is what makes CI unique, ZO regen is nice bonus. but if one pays at least SOME attention to what is happening it is quite easy to run away for long enough for ES to recharge. it takes ~2-3secs for full recharge. with Jade flask and some block it DOES happen in combat. decoy totem, golem, some skeletons or whatnot and suddenly it 'just works' sure, ive tested up to 73 maps only (yet) BUT - the damage grows in higher maps but the mob density does not. so if one is able to dance around mobs in 73, there wont be many changes in 82. but i know i know - 'who wants to play like that'. if someone likes to 'facetank' - there are life builds out there, with their share of problems. i see nothing wrong in CI builds needing to play in a different manner than life builds. CI != life after all. with all good and bad consequences |
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" maybe there is a number. the enemy power creep is real though, I mean play a Shipyard boss, then play Courtyard boss... When Shipyard and Shrine were the top 2 bosses in the game I could see myself playing hit and run recharge, np, you just have to know your limits. Against courtyard would you ever be able to regen is the thing? One stray spark is all it takes to reset that cooldown. Old merv, np, new merv? Do you honestly think you could play jungle valley boss and survive purely off recharge? Old jungle valley sure, I mean you could drag the spinner into the main open map and kite it all over the place. GGG have this thing, and I dont always like it, of making boss rooms very small. I feel like it forces a more facetank, trading blows style play. At the same time though the game was a bit of a joke back then for ranged chars in a lot of regards, if something couldnt 1 shot/instaburt you it was no threat because you could just cheese it. I think the answer at the time seemed to be "so make the boss 1 shot you" and then where did that leave melee? Leech wasnt a big deal back then just in general I feel. I used to play an ek marauder right at the start of open beta, ek + bm + iron will + faster cast + added fire + faster proj... where was my leech? I didnt have any leech you didnt need it, that worked fine, I just had life regen and pots. I remember when they changed jungle valley, I went in with that character, insane armour, endurance, hp etc... I just got annihilated, almost instantly. I came to the forums and joined a crowd of people saying guys, wtf is this? I had no way to sustain in forced combat like that because I had no leech, I didnt need leech until then ultimately, and no one was really doing instagib dps. If you had 10k tooltip dps back then that was high damage. Most people had 2-6k dps and did just fine with that because nothing was relentless, you could kite virtually anything, disengage at will, and in doing so trivialise any non 1 shot content with patience and range. There were no devours, frogs, evangelists etc. the old jungle valley Id walk up to the entrance to the boss area, fire into it, walk back, turn and fire, walk back, turn and fire... it was a trivial joke, Id drag that boss half way across the map if I had to. Unless u were melee, then you got in melee range and it just virtually 1 shot you. While I feel now theres too many ultra claustrophobic encounters where theres no space at all, which even aesthetically i dont like as it makes the game feel small in scale somehow (dunno if Im explaining that correctly), I do feel like its a better game now over all. I prefer the new jungle valley, it feels legit and worthy of a good game. Far more balanced between melee and ranged, it feels faster, more dangerous, more action packed, more about reaction time, second by second skill, harder to cheese, harder to relax... and that has brought with it a situation where some sort of close combat sustain is a lot more necessary now. Having 0 leech used to be fine, now 0 leech is kind of sketchy, even if its just a doryanis belt or a caterina weapon craft it makes all the difference. Well, made maybe? Ive not rly given casters too much time so far post expansion so I dunno how thats holding up with the new leech mechanics. Maybe this thread suggests not well in some cases? I cant speak to that from experience. I would say though that I wouldnt trade the game this is for the game it was, overall its a far better game. While theyre obviously now trying to dial back a bit and make combat sustain less powerful for ranged characters and possibly theyve gone a bit too far where some casters are concerned? Not for me to say, but if es requiring more sustain than it once did and having it is the price to be paid for having a more fast paced, engaging, dangerous, balanced, fun game then imo its worth, that to me is a small price for what I see as a significantly better overall game. I do draw a line at es pots tho, this talk recently of giving es some sort of flask recharge mod... no, stop, DO NOT do that under any circumstance. Es has more hp, less mitigation, no pots, thats its thing atm, if ci needs help then the variable is the % more es on infused shield, thats the volume control for ci, if it needs turned up turn it up. If people feel they need vaal disc then they should be using vaal disc. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
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^Doesn't stuff like zombie's or decoy totem provide a means to those characters to recover ES even in
boss-rooms? From my PoV, every ES based character should have a zombie gem tucked in somewhere in his set-up.(if its natural recharge based) Hit's you don't take means ES recovery up-time and is beneficial. Something like Decoy totem / minion+ totem resistance/zombie's/minion life in a 4-link i would imagine does wonders for such a char. It is quite fast now if you spec into it, so creating a distraction should work to refill. And the base regen is reallyyyy solid. Granted i have little end-game experience on the CI field though, i only played no-shavs low life builds and those didn't use natural regen since they abused blood rage in the old version. The new charge mechanic has triggered my interest though, compared to the old one it's a massive leap forward imo to be more in sync with the content of the game.(which has increased rapidly) Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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