I am lucky, therefore game is fine

"

Peterlerock wrote:

"

johnKeys wrote:

but gated content, needs to be gated by difficulty and character progression - not layers upon layers (upon layers) of RNG.

I've yet to see an idea how to implement this.

If it comes down to zana selling lvl 78-82 maps for 1 chaos each, that's not how it works.
Nobody would need to roll them for difficult mods anymore, and a blue/white 78 map is about as "difficult" for a well-equipped lvl 88+ char as a tropical island is to some random lvl 80 char.

Meaning, it would boil down to: free access to xp.
...which would be a horrible thing. Lvl 100 within a week for everyone.
No more carrot on the stick.

It totally doesn't have to be that way. ONE way to a) have maps as a currency sink, b) make people want to roll hard maps, c) NOT gate content behind a giant RNG wall, d) NOT make people run the same maps over and over again, e) reduce the emphasis on trading when it comes to progression, and f) eliminate the frustration of falling back on low-level maps, is this:

1. Greatly increase the amount of XP needed to get from level 80 to 100.
2. Sell all white maps at a vendor for a low price
3. Make 2 different unique versions of each map that are drop-only, most of which give greatly increased XP, some of which have uniques that can drop only there, some give increased chances for currency or uniques to drop, etc., and all of which have moderately to greatly increased difficulty and/or certain mechanics that need to be learned.

I hope it is clear why this would be a MUCH more satisfying endgame for many people without sacrificing anything GGG aimed at with 2.0.

A major fallacy people commit is comparing what drops for them to what's on the market. You can't have it both ways, either you compare your drops to your drops only or you compare what's on the market to what's on the market. It's so silly when someone buys a 500 dps 2-hander and then he cries that he can never drop a weapon upgrade...

I'm pretty happy with the state of the game, but it's not "I am lucky, therefore game is fine".

Everybody has lucky and unlucky streaks in this game. Hours and hours of nothingness, and then you get some nice stuff. But many people do not even realize the nice stuff they got.

I'm just annoyed by people unwilling to adapt to changes in meta, economy or whatever.
This game likes to keep it fresh, everything's rebalanced constantly.
And if your build is ruined, don't worry, make a new one. Or adapt the old one.
All this crying and begging for changes, nerf this, nerf that, bring back 1.3, hand me maps and uniques and currency on silverplates etc...

People need to learn to relax.
It's just a game.

I also meant to make this point to Vaux(and others).


Complexity does not equal diversity.

Quite the opposite actually.

People are confusing complexity for diversity. PoE is complex(to the extreme) but it isnt as diverse as you are trying to make it out to be.


In johnKeys case more diversity would mean it would be more likely for him to be "lucky" as he has more options to work with, it would also increase his enjoyment of the game.

"

Chameleon wrote:

People are confusing complexity for diversity. PoE is complex(to the extreme) but it isnt as diverse as you are trying to make it out to be.

You have to dig deeper into this.
I don't get what you mean.

PoE is super diverse, imho.

You can play alone or with friends (or strangers).
You can pick your own path in a crazy huge skilltree.
You can choose between dozens of skills and supports, that's thousands of combinations.
You have a bunch of mechanics, gear types, uniques, playstyles etc

It is the players that ruin the diversity.
Builds get judged, streamlined, reduced to "endgame viability".
Gear options get cut down. Everything that is not the best money can buy is not "viable".
Only the "best" skills can prevail (though pretty much all of them are good enough).

You can fool around a lot in this game and build some very interesting stuff once you ignore "late-lategame viability" and FOTM, when you're satisfied with lvl 80-85 and maps around 75.

It's the same in any game. Dota has a about a hundred different heroes, but in competitive play, it looks like there's only 10-20.

I'll just reiterate what was mostly already said:

It is nigh IMPOSSIBLE to gate content behind anything other than gear-RNG, in an ARPG. EVENTUALLY (key word), the only thing stopping you from progressing will be gear, and that is really the case with any RPG. GGG has actually done a brilliant job gating content by skill up to a certain extent, but eventually it is going to be a gear-check (ever RPG ever made has this. see back to FFVII - could you beat Emerald/Ruby Weapon without the right gear, because you were GOOD at the game? Fuck no, you need the exact materia combos or you get beat down).

So, with the fact that there will always be a gear-check, and that you don't like RNG - what is your proposed solution? That when you hit level 80 you are automatically given a full set of mirrored gear so that you can continue to play the game the way you have 'fun' with it? Get real.

You can play this game the way you want to. And have fun, there is nothing stopping this. You not being able to clear the hardest content in the game is no keeping you from having fun. But if you want to 'be the best' or clear endgame, you have to earn it - and if that means participating in a part of the game that is 100% accessible to you, do it or accept your current state.

As far as your point Chameleon, you're exaggerating to the utmost extreme. As I mentioned earlier, I can clear the most difficult content in the game with 8k life, high armor, max endurance charges and proper flask management. That is technically 3, read it T H R E E defensive tools - no fortify is not a defensive tool you're actively using and your health pool is not a form of mitigation.

And yes, complexity does absolutely 100% ======= diversity. Will every complex build be 100% optimal? Of course not, but with the right gear and player skill you can complete just about anything. This game does diversity better than any other game by tenfold.

"

Faendris wrote:

"

johnKeys wrote:

I don't want my experience to be "optimal", Faendris.
I want it to be fun.

and if I play differently than you do - e.g. only trade when I really have to, instead of sitting in XYZ all day with constantly-updating spreadsheets of the current rate of Exalts, to gain "wealth" - that doesn't mean I'm "not using all the tools at my disposal".
it means I play the way I want to play.
and yes I have the right to complain about stuff I don't like in the game's current design and implementation, just like everyone else does, and make a valid point.

once you start to think in terms of who has the "right" to provide feedback and who doesn't, you will troll and harass people for thinking differently than you.
talk down to them.
tell them their point is invalid because they are not you.
so don't.

Of course you have all the right in the world to provide feedback. And I have the same rights to provide feedback on your feedback. In particular it is totally fine for me to point out that RNG is only a problem for you because you refuse to trade (even though the developers clearly state that trade is an important part of the game). It is also OK if I point out that your statement that you need to invest a lot of time in order to trade is plain wrong. You just need to put up a shop with buyout prices and then trade when someone wants to buy something from you. There are even tools which automate the first part.

Now, of course you are free to provide feedback on my feedback on your feedback. That is how a discussion works.

To be honest, I've seen enough johnKeys' threads, to know that there is little chance for him to understand that concept, namely:
If game was to be changed, to make playing without (or little) trade easier, playing with trade would be trivial.
You can't have both johnKeys'. And for time being, we're having trade.
And it has NOTHING to do with luck/RNG. I manage to get everything I need on every league. Am I lucky? Maybe. Are rest of the people who trade/manage their play skillfully (YES, this is a skill - you can deny it forever) simply lucky? Less likely. Could you simply be wrong? Highly probably.

Also:

"

It is the players that ruin the diversity.
Builds get judged, streamlined, reduced to "endgame viability".
Gear options get cut down. Everything that is not the best money can buy is not "viable".
Only the "best" skills can prevail (though pretty much all of them are good enough).

You can fool around a lot in this game and build some very interesting stuff once you ignore "late-lategame viability" and FOTM, when you're satisfied with lvl 80-85 and maps around 75.

<3 My Summon Skeletons build is lovely. Buy every jewel/piece of eq/skill gem for almost nothing, because nobody wants it, cuz it is not FOTM. And it is not THAT bad, actually. : P

"

Faendris wrote:

Now, of course you are free to provide feedback on my feedback on your feedback. That is how a discussion works.

absolutely.
and I respect people like you, who wish to turn a disagreement into a discussion.
it is the exact opposite, of what people who my OP addresses, tend to do.

@Perq,

I disagree with your bold statement (literally).
it's not black and white, and I don't think the sky of Wraeclast will come crashing down if people would actually get loot in proportion to the difficulty they take on, and the risks they take.
if "currency" actually becomes orbs you can craft with instead of Casino Chips.
if maps actually drop in proportion to whatever ungodly shit you just rolled and beat.
if ....

when I say "risk/reward" (and I know you just love it when I say that), it's not some far-fetched, revolutionary concept. it is something that has been implemented to varying degree, in just about every single game I ever played.
and here's the real kicker: some of them even had RNG.
and RNG lived happily alongside risk/reward. because RNG had a role, instead of rule.

but again we are going off-topic.
Faendris' comment is very on-topic.

"

johnKeys wrote:

I don't want my experience to be "optimal", Faendris.
I want it to be fun.

and if I play differently than you do - e.g. only trade when I really have to, instead of sitting in XYZ all day with constantly-updating spreadsheets of the current rate of Exalts, to gain "wealth" - that doesn't mean I'm "not using all the tools at my disposal".
it means I play the way I want to play.
and yes I have the right to complain about stuff I don't like in the game's current design and implementation, just like everyone else does, and make a valid point.

this reminds me

the other day I wanted to do calculations. you know, same ol' division/multiplications with some adds/subs thrown in

and I decided to have fun and do it with an virtual abacus. because, I like it like that. I calculate the way I want to calculate, right ? right

needless to say, it didnt go too well once I attempted calculations with big numbers. I couldve used an ALU with shifters, muxes and control units along with memory blocks to execute instructions effortlessly with a piece of software, aka calculator. but I didnt. because I wanted to have fun. abacus are fun, turing machines are not.

I then went to forums of people who make computer software and I tore them a new one. I just wanted to have fun calculating things I said, and you ruined it. RUINED it. I have the right to complain too.

"

grepman wrote:

needless to say, it didnt go too well once I attempted calculations with big numbers. I couldve used an ALU with shifters, muxes and control units along with memory blocks to execute instructions effortlessly with a piece of software, aka calculator. but I didnt. because I wanted to have fun. abacus are fun, turing machines are not.

I then went to forums of people who make computer software and I tore them a new one. I just wanted to have fun calculating things I said, and you ruined it. RUINED it. I have the right to complain too.

that's a dumb analogy.

CS is based on Turing Machines.
now tell me, where does it say the game is based on trade?
trade is an option of something you can do in PoE. the most "important" one to GGG apparently, but still an option.
killing monsters, doing quests, and building characters - on the other hand - defines the genre which this game is supposed to be part of.
so as long as I do that, I am indeed playing "as intended", and I do indeed have the "right" to complain.

and did you just seriously call every ARPG before PoE, an abacus?