Death Penalty Adjustment Discussion

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The death penalty is nothing but a deterrent to play; it really serves no other purpose given the sheer breadth of the game. That's why people keep bringing it up.

The death penalty servers to pressure people to make balanced builds, honestly without a penalty SC players would care less about making a balanced character and make one that clears as fast as possible.

The penalty has many purposes, not just lol stop playing your character you just died noob. That is a side effect to the feeling of losing something, its going to happen so as long as there is a a penalty, which is why even 1/2 the current won't solve the issue for people that are against any penalty.

People that keep bringing it up are ignorant, GGG, specifically Chris in the Q\A thread JUST SAID the xp penalty is fine. In addition we have a WHOLE MONTH maybe a little more before Act 4, nothing is going to change before then and probably not before Act 4. GGG won't change the penalty mid league, so we are at least 5 months out from a potential change, with who knows what is in store for act 4 zone\endgame\map\ect changes that will have an impact on getting to level 100. Its ignorant to discuss this topic without the knowledge of the act 4 changes.

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*-> That, and readjusting the curve like I suggested. If more SC players accepted ~85-90 as when there characters were "done," then they'd be less discouraged by experience loss as a deterrent from engaging "too hard" content.

Thats the issue here, players think they should be able to "complete" a character quickly, they shouldn't be able to get max level in PoE in any reasonable amount of time. Those last skill points aren't going to enable you to do content (at least in SC) that you couldn't otherwise do. There is no uber boss that needs level 95+ to kill.

The cartoboxes allowed for more players to reach ultra endgame maps, the issue is when GGG took their "commonness" away they removed the affordable cost of mapping for players that were deing, therefore they must come here and cry on how they lose progress when they die. Except they still gained wealth, items and depending on frequency of deaths XP.

I find it humorous everyone who claims the penalty is legitimate and necessary probably uses ALT-F4 on a regular basis. Let one person here defending the penalty truthfully say they never Alt-F4 out of the game to avoid death. As I previously stated, such a mechanic is just absurd and is indicative of a flawed system.

For example, my 78 Dual Static Strike Templar (4K health, max resists, 26K static, Dual Doryani's, belly of the beast, etc.) was running Jungle Valley with Sea Spawn (skipping the boss of course, because it's just not worth it - another indicator how the punishment removes fun factor). It was a simple fun "mow down" map with no extra damage mods. Came across a white strongbox. Blue modified it for rarity and some other non-damage-related augment. Triggered. Got jammed by the spawns, couldn't move. Started my static spin. BAM. Instant death (my health bar didn't even move - just went to zero). And no there wasn't a reflect mob in there. Probably a combination of exploders and cold attacks. Note there wasn't a rendering delay or a latency issue.

Now, I could have (and probably should have) ALT-F4'd out when I saw I was stuck (don't have quartz on this character). But the dynamic combination of "events" resulted in an insta-death that is nothing to learn from for me other than "I should have ALT-F4'd out". 10% experience gone. Not a big deal at 78; make more than that in a single map run right now, but most of the progress from the map - gone. But these are the sorts of things that happen all the time. Yes, I could have avoided the box (deterrent) or I could have had a quartz (really not part of the build because it's so rare this happens), but that's about it.

But this is the real sort of thing that happens all of the time due to the dynamic nature of the game. And when 1.4 comes out, I'm sure there'll be even more combinations that can quickly kill you - even with solid builds.

I felt this discussion was important as GGG prepares for the 1.4 release. The world of PoE is designed to kill you, and regardless of "skill" there are many instances when a player is quickly (and sometimes, instantly) killed. It's part of the game. Granted this may not be the perfect example, the core point is punishing the player for such events just deters "the average gamer" from playing and often irritates, upsets or angers them.

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I find it humorous everyone who claims the penalty is legitimate and necessary probably uses ALT-F4 on a regular basis. Let one person here defending the penalty truthfully say they never Alt-F4 out of the game to avoid death. As I previously stated, such a mechanic is just absurd and is indicative of a flawed system.

I don't have it bound to a key and have used it on occasion, but recently I have changed my direction to play in HC, where the death penalty means a loss of a character, so while I understand where you are coming from that the whole idea of logging out to avoid death (people did it in d2 as well) may seem like a terrible design choice, it isn't. This game has situations that can be very difficult.

How on earth do you think deaths shouldn't have a penalty? In what world do you think deing shouldn't have any effect on your character or progression?

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For example, my 78 Dual Static Strike Templar (4K health, max resists, 26K static, Dual Doryani's, belly of the beast, etc.) was running Jungle Valley with Sea Spawn (skipping the boss of course, because it's just not worth it - another indicator how the punishment removes fun factor). It was a simple fun "mow down" map with no extra damage mods. Came across a white strongbox. Blue modified it for rarity and some other non-damage-related augment. Triggered. Got jammed by the spawns, couldn't move. Started my static spin. BAM. Instant death (my health bar didn't even move - just went to zero). And no there wasn't a reflect mob in there. Probably a combination of exploders and cold attacks. Note there wasn't a rendering delay or a latency issue.

4k health is a bit low with belly tbh. Most 72 maps bosses are a bit overtuned and that map in particular is difficult for a lot of builds, but that isn't the issue you mention here. I wish you had a video of this gameplay as I just can't believe that you died before being able to react at all, whether it is pot, logout, ect. People are playing this game getting to high levels (even 100) without deing at all, which indicates that not only is it ignorant to say the penalty should be removed, but unnecessary.

Was this before the strongbox change, where it loaded all at once? What types of defenses are you running? Capped resistances? All of these are important factors that need to be balanced and if they are your character lives or has time to "react" if not you die and lose XP (or if in HC your character)

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Now, I could have (and probably should have) ALT-F4'd out when I saw I was stuck (don't have quartz on this character). But the dynamic combination of "events" resulted in an insta-death that is nothing to learn from for me other than "I should have ALT-F4'd out". 10% experience gone. Not a big deal at 78; make more than that in a single map run right now, but most of the progress from the map - gone. But these are the sorts of things that happen all the time. Yes, I could have avoided the box (deterrent) or I could have had a quartz (really not part of the build because it's so rare this happens), but that's about it.

If your playing a melee character you need to be careful around strongboxes, the quartz flask was the best flask ever added for melee as you gain the ability to not put yourself in the situation where your blocked by mobs. Paired with strongbox addition most HC players I see going melee try to get a quartz with movement speed rolled on it, instead of running a quicksilver.

Saying the only options you have to avoid the 10% loss was quartz flask or avoid the box is wrong. You can adjust your tree to have more defenses, you could have smoke mined first to create a cloud for them to miss, plenty of things you could have done differently to avoid this death. In addition you mention its not that large of a loss (it really isn't) at your level. I can only assume that your character will get stronger in the next 12 levels (before the XP penalty really hurts) and you can learn to avoid situations or have better defenses to be prepared.

I honestly wish you had recorded this scenario so we could see exactly what happened, but tbh its all hearsay. You could have been cursed with ele weakness, you could have been desynced, many things could have come into play that we don't know.

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But this is the real sort of thing that happens all of the time due to the dynamic nature of the game. And when 1.4 comes out, I'm sure there'll be even more combinations that can quickly kill you - even with solid builds.

Yet we have high level players in HC leagues and you are complaining about a death of a level 78 character in SC. Sorry, to say the options for avoiding deaths aren't there is just completely asinine.

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I felt this discussion was important as GGG prepares for the 1.4 release. The world of PoE is designed to kill you, and regardless of "skill" there are many instances when a player is quickly (and sometimes, instantly) killed. It's part of the game. Granted this may not be the perfect example, the core point is punishing the player for such events just deters "the average gamer" from playing and often irritates, upsets or angers them.

And without any punishments the game is no longer a hardcore APRG game. It simply isn't. GGG shouldn't care about "the average gamer" when it comes to balance and I think Chris has made it quite clear they won't change the game to appeal to a larger playerbase, which is why I don't understand people like you that claim to think its better for the game to remove it, it isn't. The whole complexity of the skill tree with defensive options and skill tree get thrown out the window when characters aren't forced into building a balanced character.

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Mooginator wrote:

I find it humorous everyone who claims the penalty is legitimate and necessary probably uses ALT-F4 on a regular basis. Let one person here defending the penalty truthfully say they never Alt-F4 out of the game to avoid death. As I previously stated, such a mechanic is just absurd and is indicative of a flawed system.

Why would I ever alt f4, that sounds like a waste of time having to log back in.

Who the hell alt f4's

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goetzjam wrote:

People are playing this game getting to high levels (even 100) without deing at all, which indicates that not only is it ignorant to say the penalty should be removed, but unnecessary.

Another factor to bring up is how players will completely skip certain maps based on the mods (usually rare). Instead of saying "oh boy, this is going to be tough" and working through it, players say "forget that; not worth the risk of dying". Also applies to groups. I hear "I can't do that map" or "forget it" numerous times. So the group skips it.

Yet more missed content because of the death punishment.

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Mooginator wrote:

Another factor to bring up is how players will completely skip certain maps based on the mods (usually rare). Instead of saying "oh boy, this is going to be tough" and working through it, players say "forget that; not worth the risk of dying". Also applies to groups. I hear "I can't do that map" or "forget it" numerous times. So the group skips it.

Yet more missed content because of the death punishment.

What a complete load of bullshit

People skip it because its not worth the time it takes, nto because of the death punishment.

Why do a temp chains map when it take ages and gives very little benefit. its not that you might die, its the hassle

Why do a fracture map when it just takes ages and you don't get any additional drops/xp

Why do a -max resist + ele dmg when you don't get much of a benefit from that, and you just have to play that bit more safely, its not that you might die, its that it slows you down.


Basically why spend your time doing something difficult for no reward

Chris Wilson from the Q&A three weeks ago:

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Q: What are your thoughts on the current state of the death penalty?

A: We are happy with the death penalty in its current form.

The death penalty is here to stay and that's a good thing :)

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Xavderion wrote:

Chris Wilson from the Q&A three weeks ago:

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Q: What are your thoughts on the current state of the death penalty?

A: We are happy with the death penalty in its current form.

The death penalty is here to stay and that's a good thing :)

Pretty much this, if this statement was from a year ago i'd be all for having a discussion or if there wasnt a 70 page thread discussing this already I might be ok with it, but as it stands now, the death penalty if changed at all won't be until after the leagues that are added with act 4, so at least 4 months out.

If people would wait until we see what endgame changes come with act 4 to discuss it further, I'd be open for discussion on this, but as it stands now nothing has changed between when Chris made that statement and now.

I agree things will change with 1.4, but the core issues outlined in my overview (which is much more detailed than the other thread) will still be a problem.

From what I've seen, Chris is a very reasonable guy, and I believe he does keep an eye on discussions such as these. My goal was to share a perspective that might have not yet been presented regarding this issue; one that I can personally attest to (i.e. having friends who quit because of it, won't play, etc.)

It is interesting he says "we are happy" (i.e. the dev team) when the question is: are the players? Let's be honest, the people supporting the penalty in this thread do not represent the players who feel as I do, and I believe there are many, many more of them. By nature, most of the people who "hang out" in these forums and post in threads like this are the more hardcore/dedicated players. They do not represent the majority of more casual/easy going players (by any means).

What GGG should do is create a database report of player deaths and cross-reference logged time to extrapolate how many players quit (either their character or the game entirely) after death(s). I believe the data would speak for itself.