Death Penalty Adjustment Discussion

My view is that there has been no good argument for the XP loss death penalty, except "I think it is better with a XP loss death penalty". Level 100 is already a huge amount of work even without death penalty as explained above. I don't consider the argument that it would make "people ill" to know that some dunderhead is dying his way through the game a good argument. Most people aren't going to want to do that and if they do, so what (see my making you ill comment)? People are still going to want to design balanced builds. If they regret passives skill tree nodes to make their build more or less defensive it is fine fun and part of the game now already. So here's my bottom line.

Pros to lighten death penalty - I know for a fact that people quit this game out of frustration caused by the death penalty. As a matter of fact everyone that I know that has quit playing PoE, has been because of the death penalty.

Cons to lighten death penalty - A few people will complain, some of those will switch to a hardcore league, some will continue playing softcore leagues, perhaps a minuscule small percentage will quit playing PoE altogether because they are so upset.


Here's my evaluation of the pros and cons. GGG should pick the one that increases the player base.

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Turtledove wrote:

My view is that there has been no good argument for the XP loss death penalty

That's because you don't want the penalty. There will never be a good argument for you.

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Pros to lighten death penalty - I know for a fact that people quit this game out of frustration caused by the death penalty. As a matter of fact everyone that I know that has quit playing PoE, has been because of the death penalty.

Cons to lighten death penalty - A few people will complain, some of those will switch to a hardcore league, some will continue playing softcore leagues, perhaps a minuscule small percentage will quit playing PoE altogether because they are so upset.

So, someone you know has quite because he was dying too much. This is not acceptable to you. If we lighten/remove the penalty, you say yourself perhaps other players will quit altogether, but you don't have a problem with this whatsoever. Interesting.

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MrTremere wrote:

For example, if you had a sharp decrease in experience and loot in any instance you died in, people would be very careful not to die.

Don't kid yourself. At high levels, players do not die to anything other than few hardest bosses in hard maps. And since you do the boss at the end, as in last monster in the map, sharp XP decrease in the current instance = no XP decrease.

Here's an example: you've killed everything, /remaining says 7, meaning Palace Dominus awaits. Map is -25% max res, LMP, inc monster dmg. May as well go for it, all portals remaining, you can die as much as you want and not give a shit.

If we're honest, getting XP decrease in current instance anyway is no real penalty, regardless of when, where and how you died. No penalty whatsoever. You may as well ask for penalty to be removed completely, no need to come up with elaborate schemes that in the end amount to zero penalty.

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toyotatundra wrote:

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MrTremere wrote:

For example, if you had a sharp decrease in experience and loot in any instance you died in, people would be very careful not to die.

Don't kid yourself. At high levels, players do not die to anything other than few hardest bosses in hard maps. And since you do the boss at the end, as in last monster in the map, sharp XP decrease in the current instance = no XP decrease.

Here's an example: you've killed everything, /remaining says 7, meaning Palace Dominus awaits. Map is -25% max res, LMP, inc monster dmg. May as well go for it, all portals remaining, you can die as much as you want and not give a shit.

People die to desync brah.

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As for @turledove what level are those players that quit? When did they quit? Please give us more information if you want us to consider your proposition\feedback.

GGG should never pick something just to increase or be more appealing to a larger player base. One of the reasons why PoE is as good as it is, is because it won't sacrifice the integrity of the game in order to to appeal to players.

Edit:

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mark1030 wrote:

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CanHasPants wrote:

^ That is an issue concerning risk vs reward, not DP.

How can you say that? The only risk is the death penalty, therefore it's an issue concerning the death penalty.

Because easier content is more rewarding compared to its associated risk than harder content is. Players can sustain themselves on easy content. That is a problem with the rewards, not the risks.

There is a problem with the risks, but that has nothing to do with DP (e.g., certain broken mechanics that have gone unchecked for the past ~2 years, which cultivated an environment where "one-shot" has become synonymous to "challenge.")

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Cons to removing DP: More glassy builds can complete content; clear speed becomes the sole metric for success; defensive builds (that clear more slowly) cannot compete; build diversity diminishes because defenses become less relevant.

Pros to removing DP:

Oh, cmon. Even I concede there are some pros, not just cons. You don't fear risky situations so you actually manmode things instead of being hypercautious. Attracts a wider audience (although, I'd argue, holds their attention for a shorter time). Etc.

It is still a crap idea but enough with the hyperbole.

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goetzjam wrote:

GGG should never pick something just to increase or be more appealing to a larger player base. One of the reasons why PoE is as good as it is, is because it won't sacrifice the integrity of the game in order to to appeal to players.

I actually agree with your statement. What makes PoE so fantastic are the features like dynamic builds, crafting/economy/trading, the map system, and the dynamic nature of the combat experience. I'm sure there's a few other points that could be mentioned, but death penalty is not one of them. As such, removing or changing it will have little (to no) impact on the "heart" (or integrity) of what makes PoE great -- instead it will prevent numerous players from being driven away.

The death penalty is nothing but a deterrent to play; it really serves no other purpose given the sheer breadth of the game. That's why people keep bringing it up.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Oh, cmon. Even I concede there are some pros, not just cons. You don't fear risky situations so you actually manmode things instead of being hypercautious. Attracts a wider audience (although, I'd argue, holds their attention for a shorter time). Etc.

It is still a crap idea but enough with the hyperbole.

I was aiming more towards facetious than hyperbolic ^-^ There are, of course, benefits to readjusting the death penalty; I've even expressed support towards (potential) ideas, provided they're well conceived or provide something more to the game. IMO, most suggestions are not, and outright removal is especially not.

Ultimately, however, I believe most of the issues people express stem from other areas of the game, and would be better resolved elsewhere. E.g., being overcautious--this behavior is not motivated solely by death penalty, but also by the investment of scarce resources necessitated by the map system. I believe a larger audience would be more amiable towards engaging more (or perhaps, "too") challenging content if* there were some kind of supplementary content system that divorced resource management from the risk-reward paradigm (no lack of emphasis on reward).

*-> That, and readjusting the curve like I suggested. If more SC players accepted ~85-90 as when there characters were "done," then they'd be less discouraged by experience loss as a deterrent from engaging "too hard" content.

Another one of these pointless threads saying 'lets take it away'

With the idea 'it is a punishment enough to die'

Just don't die, that's why its there. It makes you suffer for a reason. If you can find another solution that makes dying a negative thing (and not staying alive positive, that introduces huge balance issues since you shouldn't be dying anyway), but in a different way, then that is possible.

But just remove the penalty? God no.


Good thing is GGG are smart and are not going to remove the death penalty without replacing it with something that serves the same effect. I wouldn't mind it being a reduced xp for some time so you don't lose progress but don't progress further until you've killed certain enemies, or a 'kill the guy who killed you and get some xp back' like old D2, but just removing outright?