Death Penalty Adjustment Discussion

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Mooginator wrote:

There have been numerous posts regarding the removal and/or adjustment of the Death Penalty for non-hardcore players since the inception of this game. A most recent thread had 69 pages (posted just last month). This is an obvious hot topic, and because it keeps coming up by so many players, it should be addressed.

First I would like to say PoE is a fantastic game, probably the most advanced ARPG on the market. The team at GGG have created a work of art and I believe the future for PoE is bright. Second, I want to clarify; when I refer to hardcore players, I’m not referring to hardcore mode in PoE, but players who don’t play hardcore mode yet are serious gamers (probably 8+ hour a day focused gamers).

== Current Application ==
As most players are aware, the penalty is a loss of 10% of experience in merciless. How does a single death impact progress at end-game? First we have to understand there’s a wide variation of gaming experiences all different based on the player and the build. Some people are fast map runners, some take it more slowly, some builds are designed to map run, others not so much (but are fun to play). Some people have a great map pool, others have terrible luck and are stuck running lower level maps. It’s quite variable to say how much time a level 80+ player loses upon death because everyone’s experience of how quickly they progress is different. My experience at level 88 given my map pool is a single death can cause roughly an hour of gametime loss. My buddy (who just dinged 91) timed his map runs at 90 and found he received roughly 3% experience on a level 76 map with +Pack Size and +Magic Monsters. It takes him roughly 20 minutes to clear a map. This means one death is more than an hour of running 76 maps. This value compounds each level above 90. At 95 the level 76 map that gave 37% experience now gives 9%. This means a death is more than 4 hours of gameplay time at 95 (realistically probably closer to 6 hours).

Map pools are everything, and at 88 I find I have a hard time keeping a pool of maps >73. This means I’m usually stuck running 72-73 (on average), but I can clear them in ~10m. I get nearly double experience on a 74 as I do on a 72, so that factor makes a huge difference. But the reality is dying takes a good hour or more of gameplay away, even at 88. I’m sure a number of hardcore PoE players can talk about how you can run 77 maps in 5 minutes and keep a vast pool and they almost never die, etc. They represent the vast minority of players. We must keep in mind the average player experience relative to this discussion.

The amount of time it takes to get to 100? One person logged nearly 1,500 “play” hours. A very interesting thread to read is “How I got to level 100”: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/390491. Granted it’s an old thread, the game mechanics related to their experience still exist today. One key quote: “Everyone in the group we had essentially quit the game or rerolled new characters due to deaths or boredom.” Let that sink in.

There are plenty of hardcore players out there who regularly run 75+ maps, but for us end-game non-hardcore players, it’s difficult to keep a map pool of 74+, and the maps become substantially more difficult to complete (with a much higher risk of death). Throw in spirits and the impact of opening strongboxes and the risk raises substantially. The game is hard enough at 85+ that losing an hour or more of your efforts for some unforeseen spirit+rare mod combination can be downright infuriating.

At the time of writing this, only 12 people have made it to 100 in Torment and only 156 to level 95 or higher. If 100,000 people are actively playing Torment (my guess is the number is higher), that’s only 0.16% of all players who have reached 95 or higher.

The concept of the death penalty: Why does the penalty exist? Was it implemented just because Diablo 2 had it? Did the design or the “vision” of the game include a means of controlling player progress with the penalty? Only GGG can answer these questions. A common argument made by players is the penalty exists to limit the number of players who reach max level or near max level, and to “reward” those who are able to skillfully circumvent the penalty to achieve higher levels than the majority of players. But does this really enhance the game experience for players as a whole? The simple fact is the death penalty concept comes from old-school systems that are no longer prevalent. Why? Because with a well-designed game, it’s unnecessary. Granted there are exceptions, such as Dark Souls, but most new online games (MMOGs included) do not “take” from a player when they die because they have so much to give.

There is a psychological and emotional reality relative to losing experience on a character that is high level. Most players experience anger and bitterness. Some people get enraged. These are not good things. I’ve heard more than one of my friends refer to PoE as “that fkn’ game…” even though some are still playing it. Why have a system that generates inherit resentment? The simple fact is even if PoE had no experience loss penalty, players would still be angry at dying. This is seen in D3 all the time.

Challenge vs. Punishment: There is a fundamental difference between challenge and punishment. PoE punishes you for dying. This is very problematic as the majority of people play games to have fun, obtain rewards, build something, and overcome challenges; not to be punished. I believe the core philosophy of punishment is a mistake in the gaming world unless a game is specifically designed to be punishing and cater to a niche market. I do not think PoE is such a game, yet it punishes its players – which drives many of them away. Another key issue is PoE is about experimentation, but the death penalty also punishes players for experimenting with different builds. This discourages players from “trying new things” that might not work as well as they should. Does this drive inexperienced or less skillful players away? I believe so. Even with the ability to create multiple characters, a player will think to themselves “well I could try build X but I’ll be dealing with this same problem once I hit the higher levels”.

Fun vs. Stress: we play games to have fun and to be challenged. While PoE is a very challenging game, as mentioned above, the resulting mechanic for dying is punishment. This approach generates stress among players. When you’re level 87 and 90% of the way to next level, you (generally) avoid any and all challenges that might result in your potential death for fear of punishment. This removes the fun factor and replaced it with stress. Just a few days ago, I avoided running in groups with my friends because doing so was resulting in wonky deaths that I was unprepared for due to their play style. I decided to run solo just to make level 88. The penalty caused me to avoid playing with my friends because of the stress/punishment factor. Many players also opt out of doing bosses that could be “fun” because they don’t want to “lose experience so close to level”. The mechanic can cause unsocial and avoidance behavior at end-game. That’s counterproductive.

The avoidance factor: I love my main FB/RF build (level 88) on Torment, but I’m taking a break from playing it because it’s become tedious to level up due to the difficulty of maps that provide any real progress. I also avoid any potentially difficult bosses and situations. It’s sad; a higher level character can never play recklessly (fun!) without the potential of losing hours of play time due to deaths. While some players may qualify this as being challenging, most casual end-game players find this a slap in the face as the fun factor of playing reckless for fun can decimate any (and all) progress for the level.

=== The penalty has already driven players away ===
My wife is an avid gamer. She loves D3 and many other games. She won’t touch PoE solely because of the death penalty. Her exact statement is “I won’t play a game that takes my effort away from me.” Another friend who played PoE back in 1.1 and got to ~82 refuses to return to the game because of the death penalty. He enjoys D3 but would come back if the penalty was addressed. Yet another friend of mine who plays only PoE (since 1.1) has only gotten to 90. He is a very mild and timid person, yet when I talk to him and he had a bad day (i.e. he lost 10-20% of a level at 90), he is angry and swears. I almost never hear him swear in any other circumstance. Yet another friend of mine also quit PoE because of the penalty. He came back briefly to dabble, but also says he’s not too interested in committing to the game (even with the new features) because the same thing will happen when he gets 80+ as before. He’ll just get pissed and quit. These are real players who are avid gamers, friends of mine, and I’m sure their response to the penalty represents a much greater number of players many of who we may never hear from on these forums.

We can examine the Steam Charts and see PoE is on the decline. While this does not represent the “total” player base (i.e. how many are playing outside of steam), I believe it is an important point: http://steamcharts.com/app/238960

There’s no question PoE has lost players because of the punishment factor.

== Solutions ==
I believe a good game never takes from the player, only provides, and limits that provision based on the player’s skill, time, energy, and effort. Also, for those who enjoy and thrive in a highly challenging environment, PoE already has hardcore-mode gameplay as a solution.
Below are two approaches to correct the death penalty punishment issue:

Complete Removal: just remove the experience loss completely. Would this really cause problems? It’s so difficult to level past 90 anyway, what sort of impact would this have? I believe it would be negligible.

Reward for not dying: provide a buff to the player based on how long it has been since they died. The philosophy behind this approach is: don’t take from the player, but enhance them for playing skillfully.

Ultimately, the game should encourage people to play; not punish them for playing. There’s no reason for PoE to push a hybrid hardcore-like mechanic against non-hardcore-mode players because the concept just doesn’t resonate with the majority of players.

== Summary ==
Are people really going to quit if they don’t lose experience when they die, or if an alternate system is implemented? I doubt it, and if a few do, my guess is it would be a fraction of players that greatly outweighs the number of players who would play, stay and pay. What keeps the players in PoE are the mechanics, not the punishment.

Is the game going to be oversaturated with level 100 characters if the penalty is removed? Hardly; it is so tedious to get to 100 the control mechanism is already in place (with maps); that and many players get bored of grinding the same character at end-game and often jump into creating other characters. But removing the penalty also gives players something to build toward: character completion. If everyone can focus on 100 without worrying about losing days, and possibly weeks of gameplay time, I believe it empowers the game because people will want to take their characters to 100, and when that character reaches 100 they’ll be excited to try a completely different build.

One reason I won’t buy the Grandmaster’s pack is because I’m not sure I’ll be able to commit to this game for the long term solely due to the death penalty. I already quit once back in 1.1 due to the penalty, and while I’m having a good time building multiple characters into the 80’s, the penalty has already caused problems and deterrence for me. Many use the argument “just start a new character” but the reality is any experienced PoE player knows “while it may be fun leveling up, once I get 80+, I’m just going to have the same problems as my other builds.” This is an unnecessary deterrence that pushes players away rather than embraces them to build and have fun.

Since PoE lives and grows based on the microtransaction-related payments of players, it makes sense to entice more people to play.

I want PoE to be very successful and believe addressing the penalty/punishment issue will greatly improve the game and invite more players to build and progress, which is what the game is really all about.

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DnAngel wrote:

The EXP penalty adds nothing to the game, and it's highly exploitable. It's possible for a character to die on purpose so that they won't level up and get drop rate penalties.

The penalty for dying is the failure in itself. Someone that dies every blue pack will get super frustrated even without any explicit penalty. So yeah someone can zerg to 100, but dying a lot will slow you down immensely and it won't be a good experience.

For those that think that a penalty is necessary, go play Far Cry 1 in the hardest difficulty and then tell me how you feel after dying 50 times in a row without making any noticeable progress.

Pointless mechanic is pointless.

PS

I play hc now, but when I was playing standard one of the most funny things was to discharge in a reflect pack. I don't give a fuck about the penalty whatsoever.

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CanHasPants wrote:

(snip)

Instead, I was thinking, part of the problem is player expectation. There once was a time when we accepted ~65 as when a character is finished, ~80 was a high achievement, and some few players were even pushing the 90's. Perhaps the level curve could be adjusted such that reaching ~85 (now as to what ~65 was then) felt like an accomplishment--not too difficult but enough that the benchmark begins to satisfy the drive to feel accomplished. Not all, but some degree more players I think, will feel satisfied "finishing" their characters then, and will be more amiable towards moving on to the next. After that, for the rest, 90 becomes the next benchmark, beginning a trend towards significantly more difficult. After that, 95 becomes the established end-of-the-end achievement, equalling about as effort as it takes to reach 100 now. After that, only the truly insane glory seekers (or competitors) push onward, with each consecutive level becoming an even greater achievement, and the "new" 100 becoming a nigh impossible, absolutely exclusive, dream.

I fully acknowledge that some people will look at that and go "fuck you're an idiot just stahp," but the intention is to satisfy sooner, the player's natural drive to reach an achievement, and the process of steepening the curve (reducing the level for significant achievements) would simultaneously make the experience penalty that much less damning.

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CanHasPants wrote:

Cross post from "that other thread."

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CanHasPants wrote:

(snip)

Instead, I was thinking, part of the problem is player expectation. There once was a time when we accepted ~65 as when a character is finished, ~80 was a high achievement, and some few players were even pushing the 90's. Perhaps the level curve could be adjusted such that reaching ~85 (now as to what ~65 was then) felt like an accomplishment--not too difficult but enough that the benchmark begins to satisfy the drive to feel accomplished. Not all, but some degree more players I think, will feel satisfied "finishing" their characters then, and will be more amiable towards moving on to the next. After that, for the rest, 90 becomes the next benchmark, beginning a trend towards significantly more difficult. After that, 95 becomes the established end-of-the-end achievement, equalling about as effort as it takes to reach 100 now. After that, only the truly insane glory seekers (or competitors) push onward, with each consecutive level becoming an even greater achievement, and the "new" 100 becoming a nigh impossible, absolutely exclusive, dream.

I fully acknowledge that some people will look at that and go "fuck you're an idiot just stahp," but the intention is to satisfy sooner, the player's natural drive to reach an achievement, and the process of steepening the curve (reducing the level for significant achievements) would simultaneously make the experience penalty that much less damning.

In other words, the problem is the game seems to have become less hardcore over time. It has become easier to reach certain benchmarks, and so those benchmarks no longer satisfy players' drive to feel accomplished. The game itself has not necessarily become easier, but the perspective exists that it has, I propose, because various achievements have softened. The game-to-player feedback process has broken down. Fix it, and a lot of the experience penalty problems go away.

Edit: Also that other thread says little about how much of a "hot topic" this is or isn't, because that thread was 90% circle jerking buffoonery.