Skills that have to be buffed in order to acheive a balanced game

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Moosifer wrote:
I did a mana based cyclone build. It's just easier to run off BM as it's one gem lost in an already strong skill while going mana is like using AA. It requires specific gear and a tight build. Generally the BM route ends up with higher damage because of it.

It's by no means impossible, I mean I got almost 300 mana regen in CB w/o EB and mana was WAY worse then. Now it's not really too hard to get 300-400 mana regen with decent gear.


The bold part is what I want to point out. Requiring equipment with +mana, mana regen, and mana leech (of which I'm sure you would need it 2 out of 3 on your jewelry pieces each) and then ending up with less DPS is not worth it.

Color me skeptical, but how viable was your mana-based cyclone in endgame solo? I'm curious about the survivability of your build. I figure a mana-based cyclone build would not only suffer in DPS, but in the survivability department as well since a number of passives would be rerouted to mana-related passives.


I'm not saying a mana-based cyclone isn't impossible, but it's impractical due to the item hunt that no one does it. If cyclone didn't cost as much as it did, then the impracticality tones down.
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My cyclone build was around the time it was introduced in alpha. Comparing it to what's out there now is kinda pointless.

Also I'm probably quick to say it has more damage because I haven't seen many INT/DEX cyclone builds compared to ones that go to duelist start. Which as most go to duelist start it's easier to get life regen and go BM than it is to go EB and get high regen. I also have no idea the viability of cloak of defiance melee builds.

I also don't think there's anything really wrong with a skill needing to be used with BM, it helps rein it in to lower power level. If everyone agrees cyclone's clear speed is currently good, if it was easy to run off mana then that's an additional link or auras that get tacked onto already good clear speed.

The complaint with high mana skills should be that ele hit and frenzy don't (seem to) match the clear speed of other comparable high mana cost skills.

Lastly, from my experiences with cyclone, the mana cost only gets nuts if you're doing short spins. Deciding between more control and easier mana cost is a good decision which involves forthought and player skill. I don't think we should remove clever mechanics like this.
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Try cycloning on single-targets (unique bosses), and your tune will change.

Cyclone has decent clearing speed. However, in close-quarters and against single targets, cycloning in short spins will eat up more mana/life than I believe should be required. There are many situations that forces a player to cyclone in short spins. Has nothing to do with player skill.

You compare Frenzy against cyclone. (Ele hit acts like a spell, and hence I won't discuss it.) Frenzy at lvl20 costs 15 mana. A bit much for a single-target skill I agree, but you do get a frenzy charge on hit in the process. Cyclone on the other hand at lvl20 costs 28 mana. That's almost twice the mana cost. Compare cyclone to other melee aoe skills, and no other skill comes close. (Dominating Blow being the only exception.)

I'm not saying cyclone should be reduced to 15 mana cost at lvl 20. Rather, start the skill with a cost of say 20 mana at lvl1, then by lvl20 it hits 24 mana. This doesn't vault the skill into OP-status - it makes the skill more usable.
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"
Moosifer wrote:
MI also don't think there's anything really wrong with a skill needing to be used with BM, it helps rein it in to lower power level. If everyone agrees cyclone's clear speed is currently good, if it was easy to run off mana then that's an additional link or auras that get tacked onto already good clear speed.
This ties into the theme of Charan's epic feedback thread regarding AoE vs single target. I feel some skills are designed primarily as spam-bait, while others are designed to be used less frequently - that is, not spammed. Cyclone's high mana cost, I feel, clearly indicates what type of skill GGG intends it to be. Of course, you can choose to spam it anyway, but you lose support gem slots in the process (and it's a shame Reduced Mana doesn't find a niche here for mana-based builds). As things stand now, no one uses Cyclone unless they intend to spam, but I for one would like to see an environment where it is used as a support skill rather than having constant uptime.
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The problem with mana based cyclone is a dead horse and has nothing to do with very much of anything else.

It comes down to, easily attained mana gain with mana leach.

Easily desynced so no mana is gained leaving you without a skill.

So your best route is to simply say "fug it" and put a BM in there, since your alternate route which is reliable is mana regen instead of leach, which in return turns into a great investment to yield the 250+- mana regen per sec.

Peace,

-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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Boem wrote:
The problem with mana based cyclone is a dead horse and has nothing to do with very much of anything else.

It comes down to, easily attained mana gain with mana leach.

Easily desynced so no mana is gained leaving you without a skill.

So your best route is to simply say "fug it" and put a BM in there, since your alternate route which is reliable is mana regen instead of leach, which in return turns into a great investment to yield the 250+- mana regen per sec.

Peace,

-Boem-


Are you all forgetting that very high mana regen is useful for AA as well?

Cyclone IMO is fine either you invest with gear or passive tree in order to run it. Not to mention the natural benefit of cannot be stunned while spinning. So if you have to use a non damage support gem to sustain it, IMO its fine because you can literally spin to win.

https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285

FeelsBadMan

Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF.
"
goetzjam wrote:
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Boem wrote:
The problem with mana based cyclone is a dead horse and has nothing to do with very much of anything else.

It comes down to, easily attained mana gain with mana leach.

Easily desynced so no mana is gained leaving you without a skill.

So your best route is to simply say "fug it" and put a BM in there, since your alternate route which is reliable is mana regen instead of leach, which in return turns into a great investment to yield the 250+- mana regen per sec.

Peace,

-Boem-


Are you all forgetting that very high mana regen is useful for AA as well?

Cyclone IMO is fine either you invest with gear or passive tree in order to run it. Not to mention the natural benefit of cannot be stunned while spinning. So if you have to use a non damage support gem to sustain it, IMO its fine because you can literally spin to win.



Well which do you want to run? AA or cyclone? Cause you're fucked if you think you can sustain both and have anything more than a pittance of damage.

Why do you think incinerate gets away with it? Incinerate doesn't scale very well with damage nodes as it does with levels, so you can afford to spec heavily into utility like mana regen and still have decent shotgun damage from LMP/GMP and sufficiently high cast speed.
Cyclone, on the other hand, does not.
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Last edited by TikoXi on Mar 4, 2015, 11:29:30 PM
Firestorm is pretty powerful if scaled with cast speed and duration alone. Also there's Enhance


The reason no one uses Firestorm is because of the visual spam.
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Last edited by Necrogue on May 18, 2016, 11:28:32 AM
"
TikoXi wrote:
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goetzjam wrote:
"
Boem wrote:
The problem with mana based cyclone is a dead horse and has nothing to do with very much of anything else.

It comes down to, easily attained mana gain with mana leach.

Easily desynced so no mana is gained leaving you without a skill.

So your best route is to simply say "fug it" and put a BM in there, since your alternate route which is reliable is mana regen instead of leach, which in return turns into a great investment to yield the 250+- mana regen per sec.

Peace,

-Boem-


Are you all forgetting that very high mana regen is useful for AA as well?

Cyclone IMO is fine either you invest with gear or passive tree in order to run it. Not to mention the natural benefit of cannot be stunned while spinning. So if you have to use a non damage support gem to sustain it, IMO its fine because you can literally spin to win.



Well which do you want to run? AA or cyclone? Cause you're fucked if you think you can sustain both and have anything more than a pittance of damage.

Why do you think incinerate gets away with it? Incinerate doesn't scale very well with damage nodes as it does with levels, so you can afford to spec heavily into utility like mana regen and still have decent shotgun damage from LMP/GMP and sufficiently high cast speed.
Cyclone, on the other hand, does not.


I have done it with CoC Ek cyclone, which gives you the damage necessary in a build like that.

@goetzjam your answer is irrelevant.

Having AA available to you on a high mana regen build contributes nothing to the statement that mana leach is rendered useless by the limitations of the engine.

@necrogue, yeah i played that, without disfavour do and crit based, firestorm is sick but it's only really viable in solo play imo because of the laag it induces on certain machines. Still fun skill but highly dependent on quality.(a bit to much even imo)


Peace,

-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
"
Necrogue wrote:
Firestorm is pretty powerful if scaled with cast speed and duration alone. Also there's Enhance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DZixWi2UhI

The reason no one uses Firestorm is because of the visual spam.

Kinda going off the rails here, but I agree wholeheartedly.

It doesn't cause FPS drops on my machine. For me-- and I don't know why this is-- firestorm makes me physically sick, almost like a motion sickness. I can't look at it at all without getting nauseous.
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