Skills that have to be buffed in order to acheive a balanced game

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Islidox wrote:
Cyclone needs it's mana cost lowered promptly. This skill is almost on par with Dominating Blow with mana costs thru the roof.

This might warrant looking at (but I wouldn't know). It was my impression that Cyclones mana cost was balanced around the decision to take more shorter spins, of fewer longer spins. Correct me if I'm wrong, but cyclone's use has shifted almost exclusively towards relatively short spins.

Whether or not that compromises its original design and balance is beyond me, but it's at least worth consideration.
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One note that seems to be being overlooked by most everyone commenting on this thread is that I did not specify exactly how these skills were to be buffed, and CERTAINLY not all of them need damage increases.

Just sayin'

Also - when I say "mana cost is too high", I mean exclusively that it's low level mana cost is too high. I should be able to run Frenzy in a 2 link with melee splash with 3 mana potions, poachers mark and a 2% mana leech ring at level 20, but bollocks if I can sustain that 19 mana cost-per-swing that it has. IN A 2 LINK! Like fucks's sake...It's as bad as cyclone when you get it.
At least cyclone only needs a 3 link to be usable (blood magic, lgoh/ll, cyclone)
"If you’re incompetent, you can’t know you’re incompetent. […] the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is." ~David Dunning
I would disagree with cyclone, kinetic blast (not that it's been mentioned yet) or power siphon needing mana cost adjustments.

The cost is and should be part of a trade-off for a powerful skill. If it is reduced, the balancing team need to factor for you replacing one to two of your gems with extra dmg or having more passive points and tweak the damage accordingly. Particularly cyclone, which is expected and almost always built around blood magic. And very strong, let's not mince words.
Mana-concerns aside for the moment (they're very complex, and most people would rather see mana not exist at all in the game)...

Viper Strike v2 is way worse than v1. There really ought to be a solid "melee casting" skill that scales strongly with +skills and doesn't rely on weapon dps (like EA for bows, or like every damaging spell). I'm still perplexed as to why they changed it in the first place, let alone why they changed it fundamentally from a +skill scalar to a dps scalar.

Double Strike (really most of the pure single targets) is completely outclassed by stuff like MS and SS now. GGG needs to do something to keep up with the power creep, be it nerfing the high stuff or buffing the low stuff.

Sweep is also in the "outclassed by SS" camp. Same as above.

Elemental Hit needs a complete rework. Flat elemental damage isn't rare anymore with Wrath, Anger, Herald of Ice, Herald of Thunder. Inherent crit chance from quality is no better than, say, Flicker Strike. It needs something unique about it, not sure what.

Firestorm is insanely strong if you have really high gem quality and Enhance. I kinda wish that the difference between 0qual and 20qual wasn't so huge. It certainly doesn't need any kind of blanket buff because it is one of the strongest skills in the game with the right setup.

Flame Surge would be kinda fun as a line-casted skill. Still thin, but really long reach. I completely disagree with the "just make it a projectile" line of thinking. We should want skills to be different, not more of the same. Besides that, it's strong as hell.

Storm Call has weird desync that depends entirely on your cast speed. If it falls on certain breakpoints, it's fine. If not, it desyncs like mad. Honestly no clue how to fix this, but it's an engine issue primarily.

Summon Skeletons has a ton of love. I wish they were a little bit faster and that there was some way to dedicate a summoner to skeletons/VSS. Something like "cannot summon non-skeletons; double max skeletons;". Would be a cool unique.
I've just level'd to 65ish in blood lines with elemental hit because I got a 17% one and said wth.

Dear god it was painful. Definitely a 3rd tier gem at best

Basically, huge mana cost - I believe in a 4 link it was 66 mana per use (wed, chain, faster). I couldn't even use my basic aoe support (chain) until I was past 50.

Certainly one of the worst leveling experiences I've had since I tried to do a power siphon build - and for the exact same reason, the base mana cost was el retardo.

Of course this was in bloodlines where I had no twink elreon -8s available, which can fix nearly all inane mana issues.
Speaking of wrath... 122.5 average damage at level 20, apples only to attacks. Increased AoE from quality (i.e. don't bother). 60% reservation.

Herald of thunder. 82.5 average at level 20 applying to both attacks and spells. 0.75% increased lightning damage (global) per quality. 25% reservation. And of course, curse on hit. Can't shock.

That... does not remotely compute. Wrath and anger should get %increases to their respective element for quality *and* AoE, for starters.

Summon skeletons - agree. Too slow. I feel like I *have* to link minion speed with it, even while using flesh offering all the time.
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davidnn5 wrote:
I would disagree with cyclone, kinetic blast (not that it's been mentioned yet) or power siphon needing mana cost adjustments.

The cost is and should be part of a trade-off for a powerful skill. If it is reduced, the balancing team need to factor for you replacing one to two of your gems with extra dmg or having more passive points and tweak the damage accordingly. Particularly cyclone, which is expected and almost always built around blood magic. And very strong, let's not mince words.


The fact that cyclone builds use the BM support gem is a big sign that the skill has mana issues. If cyclone could be run on mana without going EB, I'd like to see it. (Soultaker does not count.) For reference, Cyclone starts with 24 mana at lvl1 and 28 mana at lvl20.

A typical Cyclone setup with all lvl20 gems will run with BM (1.96x Mana Cost), Faster Attacks (1.15x), Melee Physical Damage (1.4x) in a basic 4L. Your 5L and 6L options range from LLoH (1.5x), Inc AoE (1.5x), Conc AoE (1.6x), and Added Fire Damage (1.2x). With the exception of AFD (1.2x), they are all expensive supports. The cost to cast a single cyclone can hit 212 mana per cast!

While Cyclone is a powerful skill, it's countered by its pathetically small AoE, which in turn is based on your weapon range. It's clear speed is much slower than more popular melee skills. Hell, even a melee skill with melee splash will clear faster given similar dps. Instead of arguing to increase the AoE, lowering the mana cost is a much easier solution and more needed.
For Ranger build tips, tactics, and critiques, visit this thread:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/69224
I heartily disagree, from personal testing of far too many melee skills that cyclone dps on any other melee skill would achieve anywhere near the same clear speed. The clear speed on cyclone is crazy, if built right. Maps a few minutes apiece. A kinetic blast that moves you around.

Show me a build for cyclone that is not taking the AoE passives and +2 weapon range near duelist. If you're taking those, you're foolish not to also take the -mana cost/life nodes (5% average life apiece over four nodes, -19% mana cost of skills total).

Don't get me wrong, there are reasonable arguments for reducing the *initial* cost of skills such as cyclone and power siphon. But changing the high-end costs has significant implications and I don't think quality of life (i.e. your preference to not use blood magic gem) should factor into balance on such a strong skill.

(as a side note, you should really be outregenning the 212 casting cost by the time you link everything up, and of course that drops to 172ish with just the four mana cost/life passives, plus, life gain on hit)
Last edited by davidnn5 on Mar 3, 2015, 10:58:44 PM
@davidnn5: I didn't mention grabbing life regen, reduced mana cost passives, weapon range, and AoE passives for a reason; any build can take these and are not limited to just cyclone builds. Yes, they all help, and I would be remiss if I didn't use any of that to my advantage. (Which I have.)

It doesn't change the fact that cyclone is an extremely expensive skill. And judging by the fact you haven't found a cyclone build (not COMK, COC, RF, or any pseudo-cyclone build) that runs on mana should tell you something, that cyclone cannot be put on mana unless you're running an EB-based build. Cyclone's mana cost needs to be toned down.

BTW, you misunderstood one thing - I DO use the BM gem. I couldn't run my cyclone build without it and auras. I've done a lot of extensive work to make cyclone to the point that no matter how many spins I enact, I can always outregen the cost of the skill. Both my skilltree and gear allows me to do this. (My gear is not of an average player.)
For Ranger build tips, tactics, and critiques, visit this thread:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/69224
Last edited by Islidox on Mar 4, 2015, 1:33:13 PM
I did a mana based cyclone build. It's just easier to run off BM as it's one gem lost in an already strong skill while going mana is like using AA. It requires specific gear and a tight build. Generally the BM route ends up with higher damage because of it.

It's by no means impossible, I mean I got almost 300 mana regen in CB w/o EB and mana was WAY worse then. Now it's not really too hard to get 300-400 mana regen with decent gear.
Finished 17th in Rampage - Peaked at 11th
Finished 18th in Torment/Bloodline 1mo Race - peaked at 9th
Null's Inclination Build 2.1.0 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1559063
Summon Skeleton 1.3 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1219856

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