Kinetic blast/Tornado Shot - You broke your own rule

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

lightning arrow triggers its aoe off a hit, if you chain multi proj lightning arrow the amount of possible hits scales beyond tornado shot with the same setup, it shotguns more. I do get it, what you dont get is that attacks have always been able to shotgun in this regard, and hence the idea that tornado is somehow a new thing that breaks previous rules is not true, at all. You mentioned spec throw, it cant shotgun with the initial projectiles, no attack can shotgun with the initial projectiles, many attacks can shotgun with secondary effects, thats not something new with kinetic blast and tornado shot. Thats the point, the whole basis of them being op because they do something other attacks cant do is false.

When GGG said attacks cant shotgun, they were talking about a specific component, they get to chose because they were making a true statement about part of their game they chose to talk about. I didn't make the choice, they chose that initial projectiles from attacks cant shotgun and that is still true.

Split arrow chain clears as effectively as tornado gmp, so does ice shot pierce by all accounts but I havent tried that for myself. I know split arrow is as effective, sometimes more effective.

And THEREIN lies the problem. If you link chain and GMP together on a gem that has 80% less damage attached to it (Split arrow) Every hit deals 20% of your basic attack damage, meaning you need to hit your target 5 times to break even on 1 person, or hit at least 5 people. (insert mathy stuff for split arrow, it gets complicated because it gains additional arrows)

Lightning arrow has 70% less damage on it. Meaning every hit deals ~16% of your basic attack damage, meaning you need to hit 1 person 6 times to get the same damage. And lightning arrow with gmp and chain fires 5 projectiles, which chain up to 2 times, so that's at best 15 hits, each with a small aoe. Let's assume you can hit 1 target in a pack up to 10 times, you just increased your damage by 140%. (that number is MUCH lower against a lone mob, as you often wont get the chains)

Tornado shot doesn't need chain. So we take chain out. And it has a 109% damage modifier when leveled (unlike every other attack gem, the more/less modifier scales directly, rather than inc phys - which in and of itself is incredibly significant), meaning every hit is doing ~55% of your autoattack damage. (compared to LA's 16%)

Due to the random nature of the grouping, a well placed shot with GMP statistically will be guaranteed to hit 1 mob at least 4 times and has about a 50% chance to hit each with 2 additional projectiles, so for maths sake let's say you can reliably land 5 hits. At 55% each, that's 275% of your autoattack damage against a single target.
"But you took chain out..." So we put chain back in. Our initial hit damage drops to 25%. But now we fire 15 projectiles that each chain twice at 25% damage... - and we're still guaranteed those 4 hits + maybe 2 more BEFORE the chaining even starts...Yea, no thanks on that math please. Hopefully you get the idea.

THIS is why Tornado shot is OP. It's not just because "it shotguns" but because of HOW it shotguns. The removal of chain in order to get shotgunning effects makes a HUGE difference. (50% difference in fact, who knew?"

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Starxsword wrote:

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Because Tornado shot has what is BASICALLY a built in chain attached to it (arrows subsequently fire off in seemingly random directions much like chain does with a bit more accuracy)

This is not true. Tornado Shot is more like Fork, not Chain. Chain auto aims the nearest target and will always hit.

Well, unless the mob moves out of the way, but yes you're correct. Truth be told...I forgot fork was a thing... XD

frost wall doesnt do zero dps.

etup uses it on a build with crit chance , spell damage, crit multi, buff effect and both heralds.

if you crit with a frost wall it will do considerable amounts of damage. the sheer amount of frost walls already do good damage and every frostwall hit with every consecutive hit will proc 4 additional explosions per projectile.

all of those projectiles then trigger more frost walls.

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SVD wrote:

frost wall doesnt do zero dps.

etup uses it on a build with crit chance , spell damage, crit multi, buff effect and both heralds.

if you crit with a frost wall it will do considerable amounts of damage. the sheer amount of frost walls already do good damage and every frostwall hit with every consecutive hit will proc 4 additional explosions per projectile.

all of those projectiles then trigger more frost walls.

...Someone made a build around frost wall?

Last one is smoke mine and then I've seen it all...

*edit* No, I misread. It's not a frost wall build, it's a herald build that uses...frost wall to propegate it? O.o

Probably be better to use 3 dragons and cold to fire, and then let the heralds propagate themselves.

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TikoXi wrote:

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SVD wrote:

frost wall doesnt do zero dps.

etup uses it on a build with crit chance , spell damage, crit multi, buff effect and both heralds.

if you crit with a frost wall it will do considerable amounts of damage. the sheer amount of frost walls already do good damage and every frostwall hit with every consecutive hit will proc 4 additional explosions per projectile.

all of those projectiles then trigger more frost walls.

...Someone made a build around frost wall?

Last one is smoke mine and then I've seen it all...

*edit* No, I misread. It's not a frost wall build, it's a herald build that uses...frost wall to propegate it? O.o

Probably be better to use 3 dragons and cold to fire, and then let the heralds propagate themselves.

you haven't read the thread, have you?

it's a kinetic blast build with crown of eyes. everything that benefits kinetic blast, also benefits frost wall.

frostwalls can oneshot white mobs in 70s maps.

and of course its a herald build. that is because every build in existence is a herald build nowadays (except for summoners obviously).

even every noncrit phys build at least uses herald of ash.

all spellcasters use both lightning and ice.

every crit build uses at least 2, some even all 3

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SVD wrote:

everything that benefits kinetic blast, also benefits frost wall.

No.
No. No. No. NO. NO!
Frost wall is not an attack.
Frost wall has no physical damage.
Frost wall does not utilize a wand.
Frost wall does not have Area of Effect.
Frost wall is not a projectile.

It doesn't even go the other way around!

Kinetic blast doesn't have cold damage.
Kinetic blast is not a spell.
Kinetic blast doesn't have a duration.

Crown of eyes remedies ONE of those, and it still doesn't fix the problem that frost wall is a stupid as sin skill to use in a cast on crit setup, synergy with kinetic blast aside.

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TikoXi wrote:

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SVD wrote:

everything that benefits kinetic blast, also benefits frost wall.

No.
No. No. No. NO. NO!
Frost wall is not an attack.
Frost wall has no physical damage.
Frost wall does not utilize a wand.
Frost wall does not have Area of Effect.
Frost wall is not a projectile.

It doesn't even go the other way around!

Kinetic blast doesn't have cold damage.
Kinetic blast is not a spell.
Kinetic blast doesn't have a duration.

Crown of eyes remedies ONE of those, and it still doesn't fix the problem that frost wall is a stupid as sin skill to use in a cast on crit setup, synergy with kinetic blast aside.

you are trying really hard. really.


etup skilled the following:

elemental damage - scales both
crit chance - scales both
crit multiplier - scales both
spell damage - scales both

wand damage and crit - is enabler for frost walls

i dont even know why i respond to your deliberate attempt of bullshitting anyone here.

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lukeiy wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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Covert wrote:

And look what happened, two of the most broken skills are dominating the game. I don't even really care, I just find it funny that even after TS you went ahead and added another similar skill.

Hyperbole much

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Well, unless the mob moves out of the way, but yes you're correct. Truth be told...I forgot fork was a thing... XD

Because of the random nature of Tornado shot, you can miss with the spread arrows. And yes, because forget that Fork is a thing, because Fork is pretty bad.

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ONLY if one uses Crown of Eyes that spell damage modifiers works with attacks.

You are replying out of context, the case being presented is Crown of Eyes, Kinetic Blast and Frost Wall. SVD is saying what the build is like and how Frost Wall is being scaled.

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Starxsword wrote:

Because of the random nature of Tornado shot, you can miss with the spread arrows.

Actually, it has been mechanically demonstrated that, due to the way the 'random' spread of the arrows orient in relation to one another, there has been a verified convergence point just behind impact location of the central arrow where a target has maximum chance of being hit by the maximum number of arrows. With LMP, it's almost guarnteed to get 4 hits and with GMP you're likely to get at least 4 and with a bit of luck, up to 6. The devs have confirmed this, statistics have verified it and Ziggy made a very good video explaining it in laymans terms when he covered Tornado Shot on release.