Tornado Shot is a joke right?
" I wasn't referring to damage at all. There was no GR or ZO back then, ele leech was practically nonexistent because leech gem was weaker so it wasn't worth the slot and there was none to be had on gear, and capping spell block was impossible. These days you play ES the same as life and back then you often had to play it on recharge. And yes, the game has very little choice in some aspects and in other it was trivialized. Best example is probably resource management, if they stealth changed reduced mana gem to 'reservation multiplier' it would be weeks before anybody noticed. By the way, you have nothing to fear, they won't remove shotgunning at this point, not a sliver of a chance that it ever seriously crosses their mind. We're just discussing what ifs and why is thats. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs. ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► Last edited by raics#7540 on Jan 4, 2015, 11:53:19 AM
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" Please explain to me how leech gem was weaker back then with vaalpact beeing 100% instant leech i dont get it. Capping spellblock is in 1.3 also impossible except you extremely gimp your build and other aspects of it. And no i dont play ES i only play life builds and if i would play a ES build then only a shavrone low life one to gain benefits of pain attunement. Correct me if im wrong but ghost reaver exsisted back then already so it was not neccessary to play ES on recharge. " its not that im afraid of nerfs i adjusted very well in 1.3 and some builds of mine are even stronger than in 1.2 I just want to show you where you are wrong without being rude. |
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" Starting value was 2% or something and max value was 5%, vaal pact didn't even exist and it didn't even matter because you couldn't apply leech to ES anyway. Spell block was practically non-existent as a stat. Devs balanced things back then with an archetypical caster in mind and it could work because the game had a totally different rhythm, you could play and hope you won't get hit much. It's much faster these days and enemies are nastier so casters had to get tankier and ES had to become more like life, get the same options. There's a real easy way to prove me wrong, play any single projectile shotgunnable spell without multiprojectiles, try to make up for lack of multiprojectiles with any other support and let us know about your impressions. Of course, you're supposed to do damage with spell itself, not some side effect mumbo-jumbo. You'll see very soon it just wasn't balanced to be used that way. And I'm saying that because I tried, I like to try out pointless stuff just for the hell of it. The way it usually works with modifiable spells in similar games is you sacrifice single target damage for area coverage, but with shotgunnable spells you don't, you improve both by doing it. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs. ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► Last edited by raics#7540 on Jan 4, 2015, 12:53:23 PM
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" i dont even know where to start i didnt play closed beta and i dont know if you can make a point by going back to there. But yeah sounds like back then there wasnt much choices at all in closed beta due to the nature of a unfinished product. I know of open beta and i know very well that vaal pact and ghost reaver exsisted back then (or short after) plus i dont even know whats ur point about ES? spell shotgunning OP because ES builds? and i already told you flamesurge RF>fireball GMP or single FB> gmp FB for ele prolif builds aswell as named you some choices that you have with skills you listed there is really nothing more i can add. Edit: why you dont name me a spell that you think is not viable without lmp/gmp (that is not designed for shotgunning like fp/incinerate obviously). Last edited by zzang#1847 on Jan 4, 2015, 12:58:35 PM
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" See, that's exactly the problem, the game evolved from what it was back then. However, it spent at least as much time growing on its own as adhering to the original plan. A lot of changes they made over the years were made because community asked for it loud enough and even more were a chain reaction. We didn't have lesser versions of options we have now because they weren't planned for at all, they were a byproduct of the game evolution. So, what was the idea back then was a vulnerable caster that has a large health buffer that allows for surviving burst damage but no way to dynamically replenish it, you just had to avoid getting hit for a while. And, as I already mentioned, shotgunning was a way for casters to get that extra clout at close range that allows them to survive getting swarmed. However, players asked for some way to leech ES because many claimed it reduces build diversity and game got significantly faster over the years so devs obliged. Then it turned out that huge ES pool doesn't really go with leeching so they nerfed ES and it was pitifully low for a time. After some nerfs to life, ES was brought back up and they crossed the point of no return with the addition of some elemental leech items and beefing up the leech gem So, to put it like that, we're in era of man now and a few dinosaurs still walk the earth. One of them is spell shotgunning, a troublesome remnant of a bygone era that has no place in modern society yet is still offered one at significant expense. You know, they built a stockade where the dinosaur can roam free without eating many people, a good example for that stockade is 'far shot' on voidbearers. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs. ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► Last edited by raics#7540 on Jan 4, 2015, 1:23:37 PM
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Spoiler
" its your opinion that certain supports like lmp/gmp are "dinausors" which dont belong in the game and your text in short is like: "i liked beta more i find there was more choices" - no there wasnt game has evolved and got better so much better that i really dont wanna go back to beta of this game. And still you didnt deliver any examples where a spell that is not intentionally designed to spellshotgun because of a buildin drawback mechanic is inferior when i read your text its "back then in beta the game was like" nostalgica its okay if you dont like it in its current state i have seen the developement aswell and i like it more than ever. edit: before i forget to mention it not a single spell that was designed with spell shotgunning in mind is broken or OP in the current game. Last edited by zzang#1847 on Jan 4, 2015, 1:37:46 PM
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No, friend. You probably misunderstood something along the way, multiprojectile supports must be in the game but shotgunning should exist only in secondary form, that is - if you hit each enemy standing side by side with a fireball they will be able to catch splash damage but two fireballs shouldn't be able to hit the same enemy. That way you don't get more damage versus lone enemies but you do if that same enemy stands in a group, which is perfectly fine, you're running a group spell configuration after all.
And the game should evolve, there are a few things I miss from back then (more pronounced difference between playstyles for one), but it went places since then, it's a better, more polished experience overall and we shall see it go places yet. But that's exactly why I feel that shotgunning must go, it only hinders the process at this point because devs have to tiptoe around it whenever they introduce a projectile spell or an enemy that uses them, I think we all remember the mess at start of invasion league with some bosses. But, I still think you should see it for yourself, grab ice spear or something and try making up for lack of multiprojectiles with some other support. Gaming logic says you should have better damage versus single targets at least if you use a non-group configuration, however, you won't. And check out this page if you have the time and tell me why do you think multiple fireballs are about as good as one big fireball in here http://sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Ancestral_Fireball If you haven't played it, the point is in choosing a mod out of two listed at every development stage, bronze, silver and gold. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs. ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► Last edited by raics#7540 on Jan 4, 2015, 1:55:06 PM
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" im not a native speaker so sometimes i explain myself that other misunderstand but we were talking about spell shotgunning all the time right? why should i mean something different i was refering to that. We had the fireball example i told you options that are viable without LMP/GMP i see no reason why it should not work if someone decides to go that way instead of the other route. After all the talk you still ignore the fact that any kind of shotgunning with spells requires you to stay in melee range which is a huge disadvantage you seem to ignore that in your perspective when painting the game how you like it to be (risk&investment vs reward). I see no hinderance why shotgunning for spells that where designed that way should not work anymore thats basically taking choices away while advocating for choices. About the Icespear either you fight safe from distance against a boss and down him with no risk or you stand infront of him with a much bigger risk of dying and down him therefore faster although i havent even tried lmp icespear not sure if it works like FP i see nothing wrong with this. |
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" Only with incinerate, and that's because it was impossible for the engine to make it widen and contract the projectile spread, other spell can shotgun at considerable distance. And that's what I was saying the entire time, it was a much greater disadvantage back then, that's why it was made so powerful, but it's not the case anymore. A typical incinerator is even tankier than many melees because it doesn't need much damage investment to shine and you don't even need to worry about crit, it can't do it and doesn't need it, everything else can go into defense. And there is potential for choice. For instance, if they removed shotgunning and gave slower projectiles support a sizable multiplicative bonus it would be a very strong contender for a second setup to be used on strong enemies you can't keep at distance because of higher leech potential and higher resistance to counter effects like corrupting blood because of less hits per second (and you can bet that some enemies in act 4 will use counterattack skills). Now that's choice, not 'one setup for everything pew-pew-ha-ha-ha'. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs. ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► Last edited by raics#7540 on Jan 4, 2015, 2:22:48 PM
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" okay define considerable distance and then name a spell i hope you have a fitting example for your claim as i assure you FP and icespear dont fall into that category. About incinerate , you name it so often you must really have a personal grudge against it, i played incinerate myself but abadonned it as cleaspeed of it was way to slow (played RF incinerate) compared to builds i play now (that dont use spell shotgunning by the way). So we have a slow clearing but relativley save build using a skill designed for shotgunning. again where is the problem? " the idea of removing something giving y +1 more options while x loses like 5 options clearly is the opposite of choice. One mechanic replaces the other nothing good done in ur suggstion. Btw. if you dont like the one setup for everything blame GGG for six links not me, i feel in this case again the game took a developement you dont like and try to paint it as something evil while other users like and enjoy it. |
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