Tornado Shot is a joke right?

"

pneuma wrote:

It was a good thing that Shockwave Totem was brought back to life, for example. I don't really like how they did it (making it a "Spell" is just too bland when previously it was a curiosity that it only scaled off of physical%), but they did do it.

Actually, that was my reason to give up on it.

Back then I made it as a curiosity build, you know, as 'look, this can work too if you use crappy uniques like Ezomyte Peak, Daresso shield and some not so crappy like Cuebiyari'. Or if you do a conversion to fire with avatar, cold to fire and trash like Chernobog and Hrimsorrow. It was interesting all right, but now you make a straight physical caster, it's pretty much the same as EK, with only difference in taking AoE instead of projectile nodes. It's also possible to go crit easily now, without spell crit bonuses it was kinda tricky to pull off.

"

JohnNamikaze wrote:

"

pneuma wrote:

I do care about Tornado Shot which outperforms everything. It's Akuma. SSS tier. If you're not using it and you care about being optimal, then you're simply doing it wrong. It's a no-brainer decision that reduces the amount of interesting variety in the game.

About the optimal part, you can do it with other skills like Split Arrow, Burning Arrow, Ice Shot, Explosive Arrow, and dat Chin Sol Puncture Trapper build (which was broken in patch 1.2, is now optimal). You just need to put in the effort to make them shine, just like most of the skill gems in the game.


I think what you are trying to say, if you are not using TS and you care about breaking the game, then you are simply doing it wrong. To be honest, I prefer to be wrong, because why I should put in a lot of effort in TS just to somehow break the game. There is no fun in that, if somehow make a skill feel like a cheat code.



It is a no-brainer decision if one is a no-brainer to begin with, and I will stop there. ;)

no.

just no.

with the same effort and the same - right - approach TS blows all other options you mention out of the water. you might compare it with Ice shot or whatever but it works just because you decided to not build into TS and use not-optimal setup (ignoring crit, it has nothing to do)

with optimal setup TS beats IS or any other option - and you do not need any single target setup. if your experience is different - just check how people use TS and copy that - youll soon be convinced that (like it or not) TS is just better. in fact it is the best bow skill ATM. to a degree that it is no longer possible to treat it seriously.

i respect your attitude. but this talk is not about attitudes and what is and what isnt 'fun'. it is about skill power - measured in units that do not care about 'fun' nor 'attitude'. and TS power is off the charts.

"

JohnNamikaze wrote:

I am saying those skills can be more than viable if you put in the effort....oh wait, many do not bother that anymore. They want the best skill to be handed to them in a silver platter.

Yeah, that's another one of the reasons TS is harmful to the game, you don't want 'best choice' being too obvious... or too cheap. There are broken builds but they either start working really late or are too boring, or require expensive or exotic gear, or tampering with the tree because you can't use them at all until all pieces come together, or whatever. TS suffers from being too obvious and too cheap, even with crafted bows being more expensive now.

Those broken builds are mostly an example of 'good imbalance' because they give a lot of bang for a lot of buck (and not talking about cash only), TS gives too much bang for too little buck. And that's bad imbalance, a lot of players want a good build with minimal effort and TS is just too alluring to choose something else. John Namikaze didn't choose TS because bang for the buck isn't an issue, even though a lot of players feel that way I'd still say the majority thinks otherwise.

We agree other bow skills can work perfectly fine which means there's no need for TS to be this good, the only question now is whether devs want four fifths of bowmen on server using TS. It's important when to admit you're a minority.

...
I think Sid meant different 'optimal', he probably meant to compare TS and other bow skills in 'best possible configuration within reason'.

"

JohnNamikaze wrote:

The mechanics behind Tornado Shot is what causing the skill to go unbalanced. But, taking out those mechanics would lose the identity of the skill because you are essentially creating a tornado, and shotgunning is expected to happen in a type of skill like TS from a logical standpoint. Nerfing the numbers would just make non-crit bows or non-mirror bows suffer from the balance.

I just do not how GGG will approach this. Whatever they do is based on the interest of keeping the game diverse with choice, and just balancing it based on how much they change the tree.

I don't think tornado shot identity is that strong in it anyway, it's pretty much just a split arrow that can shotgun with displaced point of origin and 360% spread.

And you know, we don't have many bow skills that scale strongly with AoE, so not much point in making a templar, scion or witch archer besides explosive arrow. But what if instead a bunch of arrows it released a cyclone moving in random direction? The animation is already there, they could just shrink it a bit (and cyclone mtxs could be compatible too for some extra cost saving). Damage could be high because of unpredictability, it would offer some nice directed damage to chosen target until the cyclone moves away (which was the intention behind tornado shot) and then it's all in hands of rng gods. And those cyclones could shotgun if their hearts are set on it, why not, they will move away soon anyway and if a few of them gang up on someone - well, you were lucky.

"

raics wrote:

And you know, we don't have many bow skills that scale strongly with AoE, so not much point in making a templar, scion or witch archer besides explosive arrow.

Rain of Arrows + Conc Effect ought to scale pretty well with AoE. Unfortunately Rain of Arrows has fallen by the wayside due to power creep in other skills - it probably needs a buff now. Ice Shot did get buffed in 1.2, and now has some potential for fun if you have a large AoE bonus and chain/fork.

I do like the idea of an actual mini-tornado appearing from Tornado Shot, though.

There is something illogical in people complaining about RNG and gated content that requires years of grinding or RMT to access, yet still complain when there is a skill that actually kind of closes up that gap.

Go figure.

"

ZenEnott wrote:

There is something illogical in people complaining about RNG and gated content that requires years of grinding or RMT to access, yet still complain when there is a skill that actually kind of closes up that gap.

Except it doesn't, it makes a bridge exactly a straw wide.

"

Incompetent wrote:

Rain of Arrows + Conc Effect ought to scale pretty well with AoE.

Yeah, but players don't usually scale the area aggressively, I guess it gains too much usability with projectile speed so it's still a right side build. That cyclone thingy would scale really good, you'd get more area and also squeeze more hits in, might be worth it to forgo some bow nodes and go left and also use that quiver with AoE bonus instead of something better. Guess it doesn't matter either way, I've never seen devs radically change a skill's behavior after it was released.