Tornado Shot is a joke right?

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

Very true, but doesn't affect this topic at all.
Tornado Shot has no more crit synergy than any other "fast aoe bow spam" skill listed ITT.

Oh yes it does, Tornado shot is already an excellent bow skill by its standard offensively, and defensively. Also, given that there is a lot going from the mechanic side, adding crit to the equation will throw things out of proportion. I brought this up earlier in this thread along with GG crit bows really making bow skills unbalanced, and Tornado Shot is an easy pick for the one that is broken (shotgunning).

I don't think it matters here, 'nado has no direct synergy with critting, like for instance Herald of Ash. So there's no exponential scaling, crit scales most bow skills by a similar factor. TS is just an unfortunate marriage between a broken mechanic and a broken skill so it's just the most obvious one, but bow crit is broken for all bow skills equally.

Actually, bow crit is not broken, just the harbinger bow variant. Tell you the truth, I'm not really against most weapon classes having a crit version, why not a crit axe, sword or 2H mace?

However, that particular weapon must:
1. Have very low base damage.
2. Be very slow (to emphasize the precision theme).

Hell, they got that one right even in final fantasy XIII which has only traces of any kind of choice. Weapon with added benefits must have sucky base stats, the better the benefit - the suckier stats you get.

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

I apologize for not being specific enough when I meant to say GG crit bow as in master crafted Harbinger bows....or in some cases, Windripper. While Harbinger Bow does seem to be a very slow base bow, it still has the potential to get very high base damage, and that scales extremely well with crit. Hence the abuse with master crafting harbinger bows in the previous league.

Yah, I'm talking about some serious dps penalties on crit weapons here, not 10% less or something equally insignificant, at least 30% less or even more. Yes, they would suck in early game and that's perfectly fine, crit weapons would be endgame material. With a multitude of 'on crit' effects we can exploit there's no reason for crit dps advantage to be that high.

I think people should realise that in this game, anything that is:
1) Ranged
2) AoE
3) Crits

will be very powerfull. There are skills that might be more powerfull than others etc. but whatever the current situation will be, the most powerfull skill in the game will be one in the above category. That was the issue with sporkers, lightning arrow, split arrow, spectral throw, power siphon, kinetic blast and even reave.

Oh men ppl like op are the very reason GGG sometimes took a move two steps backward for the game
Justifying a skill is too op then cried when its no longer viable for use guess

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raics wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

Imagine a world where FP didn't shotgun and FP did more damage than it did now. Slotting LMP/GMP would actually be a player choice of aoe over raw damage. Until they remove shotgunning, they can never buff FP strong enough to be useful without LMP/GMP.

Indeed, just take a look at ball lightning. I've seen a discussion recently where a player claims LMP improves his clear speed because of better coverage, the other doesn't like to sacrifice his single target damage so he advised maximizing AoE instead. You just don't see that kind of discussion with freezing pulse.

because you would need to remove point blank mechanics in the first place for freezing pulse or give it a unholy damage boost to compare (like 200% more dmg). But this point blank mechanic makes freezepulse pretty unique combined with a meeleish feeling shotgunning for freezing pulse is absolutley fine. You sacrifice 2 gem slots because of that one is Lifeleech which is extremely important to run a fp build save and the other one is lmp/gmp and its not like you atomatically do 2.5 times dmg LOL i mean seriously you have to be litterally infront of the boss/monster which is quite dangerous in times with no block. Obviously Glacial Cascade would be the "new" no brainer without fp shotgunning so there is your choice. By the way i know players that prefer Glacial Cascade over fp just because its safer especially against bosses and got the same clearspeed with its Aoe. There is nothing wrong with fp its a underused spell anyways.

TL;DR version: dont put too many skills in one bucket and treat them as the same just because youd like to see one skill nerfed (TS).

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zzang wrote:

But this point blank mechanic makes freezepulse pretty unique combined with a meeleish feeling shotgunning for freezing pulse is absolutley fine.

Ok, incinerate then, or fireball, or pretty much any projectile spell except ball lightning and chain, which are hard-banned from shotgunning. Ever seen anybody using fireball without multiprojectiles for raw damage dealing (not an ignite proliferator)? Ever tried asking people which would they prefer for up-close encounters? Mulitprojectile fireball or flame surge, which is designed to be a close combat single target nuke.

Shotgunning removes too much choice and screws up too much balance (both on our and on enemy side) to be worth sticking with in the long run. It was fine long ago as a way to give spells identity and provide extra close target punch because ES was more different from life back then and close combat was riskier for a caster. However, casters got tougher and the game got more complex and way trickier to balance since then, shotgunning does more hurting than helping for a long while.

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raics wrote:

Ok, incinerate then, or fireball, or pretty much any projectile spell except ball lightning and chain, which are hard-banned from shotgunning. Ever seen anybody using fireball without multiprojectiles for raw damage dealing (not an ignite proliferator)? Ever tried asking people which would they prefer for up-close encounters? Mulitprojectile fireball or flame surge, which is designed to be a close combat single target nuke.

you asked a question and answered it by yourself (ignite proliferator builds) quite popular now a days anyway i see nothing wrong other than a choice. About flamesurge vs fireball, my spellcasting righteousfire build use flamesurge over fireball any day, the damage is just huge especially with the burn bonus. So yea i asked this myself and had a choice again. About incinerate its designed for lmp/gmp use as its base damage is extremely low (by design) what would be left if there was no lmp incinerate? - no incerate use at all (right you removed a choice)

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raics wrote:

Shotgunning removes too much choice and screws up too much balance (both on our and on enemy side) to be worth sticking with in the long run. It was fine long ago as a way to give spells identity and provide extra close target punch because ES was more different from life back then and close combat was riskier for a caster. However, casters got tougher and the game got more complex and way trickier to balance since then, shotgunning does more hurting than helping for a long while.

i think you have a totally wrong sight of what balance is to "you" because you have a lack of game knowledge that is what i could extract out of your posts. About caster got tougher, well monster damage especially spell damage got tougher aswell. Moreover i showed you examples where there is a lot choice between using multiple projectiles or another mechanic where you claimed there is "no choice" i dont know what more I should add to this.
Let me clarify this one last point if you speaking of balance i always get the feeling that you mean "Chess-like balance" there will be always a mathematical optimum for any sitution be it pvp/bosses/mapclearing as it always was in ARPG/H&S in this sense there will never be balance.

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

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raics wrote:

I don't think it matters here, 'nado has no direct synergy with critting, like for instance Herald of Ash. So there's no exponential scaling, crit scales most bow skills by a similar factor. TS is just an unfortunate marriage between a broken mechanic and a broken skill so it's just the most obvious one, but bow crit is broken for all bow skills equally.

Actually, bow crit is not broken, just the harbinger bow variant. Tell you the truth, I'm not really against most weapon classes having a crit version, why not a crit axe, sword or 2H mace?

However, that particular weapon must:
1. Have very low base damage.
2. Be very slow (to emphasize the precision theme).

Hell, they got that one right even in final fantasy XIII which has only traces of any kind of choice. Weapon with added benefits must have sucky base stats, the better the benefit - the suckier stats you get.

Tornado Shot is supposed to be a jack of all trade bow skill seeing that it can shotgun, single-target, and multi-target all in one go. My bow build (almost a non-crit build, and I posted my two gears on page 9, if you want to look at the gem setup) that uses Tornado Shot and Ice Shot. In my case, Tornado Shot cannot multi-target that well compare to Ice Shot, which has no issue one shotting or almost killing every single one from a big pack of mobs in maps. It is hard to kill things off-screen with TS, but Ice Shot has no issues killing things that I cannot see.


Now, when it comes to tanking a boss, or targeting one mob at a time, this is where Tornado Shot really shines. When I mean tanking, I mean I can lockdown a boss, and if I ever get hit by the boss, and my HP is like 1/2 or 1/4 left of HP, I just need to attack one or two times, and my HP is back almost instantly like VP, but with Life Gain on Hit gem + Poacher's Mark curse. I alternate skills depending on the situation. It is not something that I can mindlessly spam, and expect everything to be fine and dandy.


I apologize for not being specific enough when I meant to say GG crit bow as in master crafted Harbinger bows....or in some cases, Windripper. While Harbinger Bow does seem to be a very slow base bow, it still has the potential to get very high base damage, and that scales extremely well with crit. Hence the abuse with master crafting harbinger bows in the previous league.


I just do not what to say, I find Tornado Shot really good, but not THAT good in my case. But like I said, there are players with really incredible bows that can make Tornado Shot be good in any situations.......I do not have the luxury.

please, crit has no place in this discussion. crit is 'just' a damage multiplier. if a skill is OP with crit it is also OP without it. just all the numbers are lower.

take a Lioneyes Glare build and i bet TS shall be as good (compared to alternatives) as with 9.25% harbringer.

crit applies to all skills and as such can be removed from the discussion without any loss.

you do a lot of gimp'y builds - i understand that approach as i also try weird stuff and sometimes even succeed. but please, do not judge skill performance on your, self-limited, experience. current bow game HAS crits in it, encourages it and it is best played with crit. i know you might not like it (i do not like it.. more and more fake diversity) but please, understand that it is what it is.

if you need AOE clear skill while using Tornado Shot - they you are using TS in a wrong way. TS is currently THE bow skill - because it does phenomenal AOE and single target in single package. your Ice Shot setup might do better, no denying. but not because Ice Shot is better, but because of you deciding to use TS in a less-than-optimal way. crit HAS NOTHING to do with it.

note: i do not comment nor judge your choices. if its is fun - then this is THE most important part. it is a game after all. but if discussing skill performance/relative performance it should be done without self-limitations.


btw: +1 about spells shotgunning. but i think that there is sadly no return from 'moar AOE' balance..

btw2: the crit.. bows with implicit crit were a SERIOUS mistake on GGG side. mistake that is now impossible to fix without power creep (or SERIOUS outrage). but i think that after giving non-crit realistic chance of attaining respectable (not in milions but 'enough') damage there is only one thing needing change: SURGEON flasks. these should go. perma flasks trivialize content (esp the resist ones). and are absolutely unfair advantage.