risk/reward isn't coming. ever. [I give up]

"

Hackusations wrote:

Not knowing what the reward will be and having no guarantees to the value creates a level of anticipation and eventually a massive "high" when finding something rare and valuable. This causes the compulsion to seek that "high" again and again.

Lol. Surely in some people, specially those who like gambling, in can create a level of anticipation and a "massive high" when finding something rare and valuable. Other people don't anticipate anything at all and do not get a massive high when finding something rare and valuable.

"

value is what makes things rewarding

Not necessarily, it is enough that the item has high utility besides its trade value. I.e. if the item has high utlity, then it can feel rewarding regardless of its trade value

"

and the variability between finding common rewards and very rare rewards creates the high that makes you want to chase the next fix.

That assumes that you ever feel "high" when you get that drop. There are an indefinite of people that don't.

"

Xavderion wrote:

EVE Online has risk vs reward. You risk your super expensive ship to destroy some other guy's super expensive ship and salvage/loot his stuff. That's risk vs reward. Pls tell me where the risk is in playing a diablo-style game x) I could maybe understand this from a hardcore point of view where you can lose your character with good gears every time you attempt a ridiculous boss but Mr. Keys ain't playing hardcore so I don't get it!

You risk having an opportunity cost that is higher than zero. Keep also in mind that in diablo-like games you can design so that you are able to lose limited resources such as your ingame currency, experience and your time.

"

Thaelyn wrote:

In the end it is my belief (which you are free to disagree with, of course) that FM has all but fixed solo and self found play.

Agree for the most part. The major remaining issue with self-found crafting is the lack of vendor currency exchange recipes for mid-level orbs higher than Alchemy - in particular Chaos orbs - which still require trading to obtain in large quantities.

I'm not talking about the Rare gear set Chaos recipe here. (Though for the record, the pernicious scarcity of Rare amulet drops makes it a sour deal.) What's lacking are vendor recipes allowing you to trade in Alcs for Chaos, Chaos for GCP, Blessed for Regal, etc. Until these are added to the game, a self-found player must resort to searching the party boards for currency trading offers. Consequently, I think it's perfect legit for self-found players to make an exception for cashing in mid and high-level currency drops for orbs that are actually useful for low and mid-level crafting.

"

johnKeys wrote:

Masters themselves are encouraging anything but solo play.
don't believe me? try and level one master to 8. just one, without taking "services" or joining in on other people's encounters/daily-missions.
and you don't need to finish this impossible task to get my point.
just get level 5-6 when they unlock crafting with high orbs that have no vendor recipes.

Totally agree on leveling Masters past rank 6. It would take years to level a Master to 8 on Daily Missions. And with only three Masters allowed in a level-6 Hideout, the chances are less than 50% that you'll run into one of your active Masters in the course of mapping. This means that for many solo players, you have to resort to paying a fee for level 7-8 Master service from a stranger. With a rigged system like this, the very least that should change is making the Remove Mod craft accessible at Master level-6.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

Someone who is way invested in Evasion and Dex PROBABLY could use Dex dominant gear more than any other. Someone who is way invested in ES and Intel could PROBABLY use Int dominant gear more than any other. It is fairly simple to know what defensive/offensive base items naturally synergize with a particular build based off of its STR/INT/DEX balance.

No, it's not "fairly simple".
Maybe I'm wearing Evasion gear because I got nothing else?
Maybe I have Dex/Int because that's the area of the tree I'm spending my nodes in, but still want to wear Armor?
Maybe I'm holding a twohanded weapon just for levelling?
Maybe I'm a Marauder, but want to be a dodging elemental bowman later?

This game would be horrible if it actually only dropped stuff that it thinks you may need.

Did I say anywhere that the game should 1) only drop items that align with one's balance of STR/INT/DEX or 2) even care about what gear you are wearing? The biasing could be very subtle, and it does not have to care about what you are wearing.

Overall, it is dreadfully simple. Most characters' STR/INT/DEX balance will be consistent with what base item types are most appropriate for them. The builds whose STR/INT/DEX balance does not reflect what base item types will synergize best should be more challenging to gear. The situation is very similar to Chromatic Orb functionality. On-colours are easier to roll, off-colours are harder; base item types that are well aligned with your STR/INT/DEX balance are easier to find, types that are not so well aligned are more difficult.

Except for builds that have high stat requirements for specific items. Which says nothing about what gear they actually are using/want.

"

SL4Y3R wrote:

Except for builds that have high stat requirements for specific items. Which says nothing about what gear they actually are using/want.

Can you be more specific?

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

"

SL4Y3R wrote:

Except for builds that have high stat requirements for specific items. Which says nothing about what gear they actually are using/want.

Can you be more specific?

Use a Mjolnir, but want to wear Evasion gear.
You probably have more str/Int than Dex.

As I wrote above: It is not that simple.

This game offers endless possibilities via the Skilldrasil.
The last thing this game needs is "loot determined by stats/gems/whatever".

I want random loot.
As I cannot imagine this game actually knows what I need.
So I rather trash 999 of 1000 items instead of getting "tailored" loot I don't want.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

I want random loot.
As I cannot imagine this game actually knows what I need.
So I rather trash 999 of 1000 items instead of getting "tailored" loot I don't want.

I believe you have no idea what you really want and are simply white-knighting.

The game does not need to know what you need, but it can make best guesses based on your passive tree investments and/or other factors.

Your are telling me that you would rather have a completely unreliable loot system than one that has some notion of reliability based on tangible factors, and I have trouble comprehending that.

The "economy" is not a good enough excuse to have a 1980s loot system, particularly when there is no true bartering or convenient marketplace "hubs" to allow the "economy" to act as an appropriate and natural way to fill gear needs.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

This game offers endless possibilities via the Skilldrasil.

The possibilities are in fact finite and quantifiable.

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

"

Peterlerock wrote:

This game offers endless possibilities via the Skilldrasil.

The possibilities are in fact finite and quantifiable.

Lol. Don't you know that in the forums "endless" is a buzzword meaning "a lot of" and "growing exponentially" is a buzzword for "growing what I consider quickly"?

ah heres that "I will not get what I want, I give up complaining" thread, in which the complaining goes on on 15+ pages

bravo sir, well done

and the usual stuff that is dishonest about past ARPGs

I played the following plenty and I'll say right now that ANYONE who calls the following 'skill check' is either a liar or has an extremely distorted definition of 'skill'

diablo 1, lazarus farming
diablo 2, baal runs
vanilla diablo 3, belial, any a3 runs, etc
TL 2, any bosses on any difficulty non-hardcore. one-shot, yes, skill- no.
PoE any bosses, including Atziri, Vaal oversoul, dominus, etc.

there is no inherent 'skill in any of these traditional ARPG games out there. stop lying to yourself.
running in circle clearing adds with one skill and waiting for dps time in between boss aoe attacks isnt skill.

its as much a 'skill check' as walking across the street to not avoid get hit by a car is a skill.
sure, if you are young and dont know what the fuck a 'street', a 'car' and 'traffic light' are, then you probably will be fucking hit. after a couple of times, most people get it down.

a monkey or a well written bot can play an ARPG and can it play it well. hell, if a well written bot (commercially) can beat people in chess, playing an ARPG is a laughable matter.


ARPGs will always have gear checks. in some games (cough vanilla d3) they are all the game is about.
the core of rpg is slaying hordes of monsters and getting epic loot and upgrading your loot.
the 'survival' part is only in the hardcore mode.
complaining about 'gear checks' in ARPG game is like complaining about reflex check in FPS and brain check in chess. its a core element in arpg game. there is no skill. if you say skill in arpg game, you are either lying to yourself or are incapable of doing the simplest things a human being can do. sorry to be harsh, but it is what is. I play a lot of game genres, and ARPGs are consistently require by far the lowest skill out of any games out there.