risk/reward isn't coming. ever. [I give up]

"

morbo wrote:

"

TohtoriKuolema wrote:

I haven't even managed to get a single level 70 map yet and am running out of level 69 and 68 maps. Granted I don't craft them much, trans and go, but goddamn You dare to belittle the allmighty RNG.

Most players have no idea how deeply RNG can screw You if You play self found.

I've self-found maps from 66 to 78s in three leagues: Domination, Ambush and now Rampage. Mapping has never been so easy than it is currently. Spend some more alterations & aug on your maps to get either 30-40% or inhabitation mods: magic mobs, pack, rares, exiles. Also roll magic pack on irrelevant boxes inside the map, to get a chance for more maps. From 71s onward throw an alc on the good ones. From 74+ start chiseling, until you have 76+ pool, then dont chisel anything below 76.

I would even argue that mapping currently is slightly too easy. I'm stacked to the brim with maps and reluctantly pick up anything below 72 (stash space issues also)... I'll never be able to run all the maps I have. (so shoot me a PM, if you want some free maps)

Thank you for the offer but I don't bother with this league anymore.. I have a load of maps waiting for me in standard. Didn't have any problems in Ambush league to get maps...even though I never found a single cartographers box inside a map.

"

1988288 wrote:

@John, I'll tell you one secret - top players are playing the game, not flipping/playing trade-tycoon. A simple example is Havoc, did you see his previous league stash?

Sitting in town won't reach you lvl 100, playing the game will. Yes, and being a forum-warrior won't get you far either in terms of wealth or XP.

Sure, flippers are wealthy, but they're playing this game for different reasons - economy gives them a thrill, flipping can be very exciting. I've done that back in Runescape days with Ores, it's pretty awesome to own tens to hundreds of thousands ores at once, Santa hats, etc. But the downside part is that I wasn't experience the real game.

"

TohtoriKuolema wrote:

Really.

I haven't even managed to get a single level 70 map yet and am running out of level 69 and 68 maps. Granted I don't craft them much, trans and go, but goddamn You dare to belittle the allmighty RNG.

Most players have no idea how deeply RNG can screw You if You play self found.

You can't run out of 68-69 even by running them white, which is now what people do, because there's no need to waste currency on low map levels. Or just in case you are running low - drop in some Trans/Alts/Aug for that sexy pack size or magic monsters.

I've been a solo-player since OB and never had problems with progression to A3M or having a decent map pool, it's a matter of adaptation and use of knowledge.

Yet some prefer to put blame on something else, instead of taking a step backwards and taking a look at their decisions.

Yes yes ofcourse you MUST be right and know it all. I didn't have any major problems either before this miserable league started and proved that yes, you can get stuck to low level mapping what ever you do, play blindfolded, play upside down, sacrifice your firstborn to RNGesus... fuck this, you are just not willing to accept this is possible, might aswell go convert religious people.

"

TohtoriKuolema wrote:

Yes yes ofcourse you MUST be right and know it all. I didn't have any major problems either before this miserable league started and proved that yes, you can get stuck to low level mapping what ever you do, play blindfolded, play upside down, sacrifice your firstborn to RNGesus... fuck this, you are just not willing to accept this is possible, might aswell go convert religious people.

Is that possible? If very, very, VERY unlucky, but it is not the usual case anymore - mapping has become easy, if not way too easy.

I would believe that one can struggle with 68-69s in OB. Now? No way.

Don't you get it? The reward in PoE are Rips.

"

BerMalBerIst1_AKA_GrammerPolise wrote:

So when is this giving up and stopping posting about the loot system happening? Was the OP just like, a head-start advance notice that the giving up and stopping is coming soon?

honestly? it was more of a last attempt to get GGG's attention.

and while I agree with some of the guys here, saying Masters and increased map drops, were moves towards the self-found - they are more band-aids than a core overhaul.
that, and they are benefiting the traders and MF-party-grinders a lot more than the SSF, which again is a clear indication what GGG's priorities are.
and as mentioned in OP, they have good reason to have those priorities.

I just still wish that at some point in time, when the game is mature enough and complete content-wise, those priorities might change, and Path Of Exile will truly achieve its potential.

"

johnKeys wrote:

and while I agree with some of the guys here, saying Masters and increased map drops, were moves towards the self-found - they are more band-aids than a core overhaul.
that, and they are benefiting the traders and MF-party-grinders a lot more than the SSF, which again is a clear indication what GGG's priorities are.
and as mentioned in OP, they have good reason to have those priorities.

You can repeat this again and again and again, it doesn't become true.

It's not:
GGG has created a system to benefit traders/flippers/magicfinders and to hurt Selffounders.

It's:
It is pretty much impossible to create a system in which Solo Selffound Play is equal to Trading/MF-Party-Grinding.

All this "GGG why do you only look at Elitists and Traders and Economy?" is nonsense.
GGG does not have to.

Economy is superior. In every aspect.
That's why human beings in every culture on this planet have built some sort of economy. Because it helps everyone. Yet here, it's flawed?

Investing more time in a game is superior to not investing much time.
Trivial, but how would you "fix" this "problem"?

Grouping is superior.
Even if monsters suddenly had +300% life and +100% damage in a two man party, you'd still clear faster and get double xp out of a map. And still one monster could only focus on one dude, while the other launches his skills into ts back.

GGG is not limiting Solo Selffound.
Solo Selffound is limiting itself.

and if you actually bothered reading my posts, Peter, you'd know I'm not asking for SSF to be equal to trading or MF grouping.
it can't. I even repeated that a couple times.

what I asked for is, while the traders and groupers get the whole loaf of bread, multiple times over - there's no reason for SSF or SF to be liquidating their brains grinding for bread crumbs.
it shouldn't be "all or nothing", and it shouldn't be mandatory trade - unless you are planning to have 5 copies of that 6-linked Shavs to Vaal Orb, or do a dozen Uber Atziri runs a day.

and now that I think we agree on the above, it would be even nicer for this "gear-is-actually-dropping" system to be encased in the golden box of risk/reward.
you get your share of dropping one GG Unique or mirror-grade rare (the kind traders have 10s of), but you need - and are encouraged to - beat some angry mother*** for that to happen, and you need to beat a couple angry mother****s to face that angry mother****.
a.k.a progression, in an over-simplified nutshell.

you know, I actually managed to do 2 Uber Tristram solo runs back in D2, and beat it once.
without taking any part in the Stone Of Jordan trade madness.
had a couple top-tier uniques, one full Natalya set, and one Zod rune too.
will I ever get to do one Uber Atziri, here? not likely. ever.
will I ever get to have one Shav/Kaom/CoE/etc, here? not likely, ever.
and 6-linking or off-coloring that is even more of a distant dream.

and when - both in story content and maps - the best loot (for me at least) just randomly drops off random rocks in zero-risk areas, I wonder what's even the point of facing the angry mother****s who can and do kill me? yes, even those who I can actually face because they aren't hiding behind a mountain of RNG only the grouper can climb, while the trader just walks around it.

"

johnKeys wrote:

..it would be even nicer for this "gear-is-actually-dropping"
system to be encased in the golden box of risk/reward.

Personally, I think the golden box you speak of is "relevancy" (and maybe "salvage-ability").

Someone who is way invested in Evasion and Dex PROBABLY could use Dex dominant gear more than any other. Someone who is way invested in ES and Intel could PROBABLY use Int dominant gear more than any other. It is fairly simple to know what defensive/offensive base items naturally synergize with a particular build based off of its STR/INT/DEX balance.

If there is some inherent level of loot determinism based on a well-defined relevancy factor, such a STR/INT/DEX balance ... what happens?

Also, regarding "reward", a nice step might be to enable multiple vendor rewards for single items.

Consider this: A 6 socketed item grants the exact same vendor
reward as a 20% quality, 6 socketed, RGB coloured item... *sigh*

"

johnKeys wrote:

and if you actually bothered reading my posts, Peter, you'd know I'm not asking for SSF to be equal to trading or MF grouping.
it can't. I even repeated that a couple times.

what I asked for is, while the traders and groupers get the whole loaf of bread, multiple times over - there's no reason for SSF or SF to be liquidating their brains grinding for bread crumbs.
it shouldn't be "all or nothing", and it shouldn't be mandatory trade - unless you are planning to have 5 copies of that 6-linked Shavs to Vaal Orb, or do a dozen Uber Atziri runs a day.

and now that I think we agree on the above, it would be even nicer for this "gear-is-actually-dropping" system to be encased in the golden box of risk/reward.
you get your share of dropping one GG Unique or mirror-grade rare (the kind traders have 10s of), but you need - and are encouraged to - beat some angry mother*** for that to happen, and you need to beat a couple angry mother****s to face that angry mother****.
a.k.a progression, in an over-simplified nutshell.

you know, I actually managed to do 2 Uber Tristram solo runs back in D2, and beat it once.
without taking any part in the Stone Of Jordan trade madness.
had a couple top-tier uniques, one full Natalya set, and one Zod rune too.
will I ever get to do one Uber Atziri, here? not likely. ever.
will I ever get to have one Shav/Kaom/CoE/etc, here? not likely, ever.
and 6-linking or off-coloring that is even more of a distant dream.

and when - both in story content and maps - the best loot (for me at least) just randomly drops off random rocks in zero-risk areas, I wonder what's even the point of facing the angry mother****s who can and do kill me? yes, even those who I can actually face because they aren't hiding behind a mountain of RNG only the grouper can climb, while the trader just walks around it.

You know I still have no idea why you use the "uber trishram" solo run example when you cannot run ubers in nonladder were most people played solo self found ~.~

Even then the gear to get is higher then uber level gear in this game and most of the D2 trading/partying and solo did not do ubers. Many players dreamed of having one zod rune or even stuff like engima or chains of honor in D2 that was legit ~.~

Also your complaining about dropping loot at "zero-risk areas" when all of the gear you just named in D2 were obtained in the exact same way.

If your going to tell me that doing ubers is easier then ubers in this game, trust me I wouldn't even try.

Also your hyperbole is getting crazy, like less then 100 players may even have +10 GG mirror items. There is like the gross extreme hyperbole you have for average "trading/partying" players and the average self-found. Nobody takes you seriously if you legitimately think the difference between the average self found player and the average trader/player is "dozens of exalts" or "alot of GG gear."

For example your like "Well look at D2, at least I got a Zod rune. Thus better self-found then PoE"

What does that even mean? You are aware that a zod rune has a 0.00003 (After they buffed the shit out of rune drop rates in 1.10+) chance to drop (actual statistic by the way) and has 0% use to any self-found player unless you collect the 3-5 other high runes to create the runeword you want after finding a good base. It has the same drop rate somewhere between a mirror and an eternal orb.

It'll take 14,281,868,906,496 (14 trillion) el runes to make one zod rune on top of 362,797,056 Chipped Topazes, 120,932,352 Chipped Amethysts, 40,310,784 Chipped Sapphires, 13,436,928 Chipped Rubies, 4,478,976 Chipped Emeralds, 1,492,992 Chipped Diamonds, 497,664 Flawed Topazes, 165,888 Flawed Amethysts, 55,296 Flawed Sapphires, 18,432 Flawed Rubies, 6144 Flawed Emeralds, 2048 Flawed Diamonds, 1024 Topazes, 512 Amethysts, 256 Sapphires, 128 Rubies, 64 Emeralds, 32 Diamonds, 16 Flawless Topazes, 8 Flawless Amethysts, 4 Flawless Sapphires, 2 Flawless Rubies, and 1 Flawless Emerald.

By the same standard if I used alterations for el runes, I would only need at max 90,000 to get one mirror.

* Disclaimer: I have not read the entirety of this thread, so if this has been pointed out already, I apologize.

"

johnKeys wrote:

saying Masters and increased map drops, were moves towards the self-found - they are more band-aids than a core overhaul.

While I have always been one to argue for the cause of improving solo and self found play in this game, johnKeys, I disagree with you here (and I even quit the game over the futility of SSF play). Masters have gone a very long way toward addressing the hurdles of (S)SF players. The issue was always, in my opinion, not with item drop rates, but with the gating of crafting behind trade. Given the deterministic crafting opportunities offered by the masters and the affordability of said crafting, the ability to fill in the gaps with gear you actually find is leaps and bounds beyond where it was pre 1.2. That's almost everything that SSF players really needed, I think. The only thing I would change beyond wqhat FM has done is to make regal orbs more accessible early to mid game so that SSF players have just as much crafting flexibility as those who trade or spend all their time in high level maps. It's actually quite ridiculous that the drop rates for the orb that should lead in to using chaos is far below that of chaos and doubly ridiculous that the recipe for it is gated behind high level maps.

In the end it is my belief (which you are free to disagree with, of course) that FM has all but fixed solo and self found play.

"

that, and they are benefiting the traders and MF-party-grinders a lot more than the SSF, which again is a clear indication what GGG's priorities are.

The issue with this is that there is nothing you can do to benefit solo/self found players that will not benefit traders and groupers even more. At least nothing that GGG is willing to consider. Perhaps a /players x option, but that horse is long since dead.