risk/reward isn't coming. ever. [I give up]

"

RagnarokChu wrote:

"

johnKeys wrote:

and if you actually bothered reading my posts, Peter, you'd know I'm not asking for SSF to be equal to trading or MF grouping.
it can't. I even repeated that a couple times.

what I asked for is, while the traders and groupers get the whole loaf of bread, multiple times over - there's no reason for SSF or SF to be liquidating their brains grinding for bread crumbs.
it shouldn't be "all or nothing", and it shouldn't be mandatory trade - unless you are planning to have 5 copies of that 6-linked Shavs to Vaal Orb, or do a dozen Uber Atziri runs a day.

and now that I think we agree on the above, it would be even nicer for this "gear-is-actually-dropping" system to be encased in the golden box of risk/reward.
you get your share of dropping one GG Unique or mirror-grade rare (the kind traders have 10s of), but you need - and are encouraged to - beat some angry mother*** for that to happen, and you need to beat a couple angry mother****s to face that angry mother****.
a.k.a progression, in an over-simplified nutshell.

you know, I actually managed to do 2 Uber Tristram solo runs back in D2, and beat it once.
without taking any part in the Stone Of Jordan trade madness.
had a couple top-tier uniques, one full Natalya set, and one Zod rune too.
will I ever get to do one Uber Atziri, here? not likely. ever.
will I ever get to have one Shav/Kaom/CoE/etc, here? not likely, ever.
and 6-linking or off-coloring that is even more of a distant dream.

and when - both in story content and maps - the best loot (for me at least) just randomly drops off random rocks in zero-risk areas, I wonder what's even the point of facing the angry mother****s who can and do kill me? yes, even those who I can actually face because they aren't hiding behind a mountain of RNG only the grouper can climb, while the trader just walks around it.

You know I still have no idea why you use the "uber trishram" solo run example when you cannot run ubers in nonladder were most people played solo self found ~.~

Even then the gear to get is higher then uber level gear in this game and most of the D2 trading/partying and solo did not do ubers. Many players dreamed of having one zod rune or even stuff like engima or chains of honor in D2 that was legit ~.~

Also your complaining about dropping loot at "zero-risk areas" when all of the gear you just named in D2 were obtained in the exact same way.

If your going to tell me that doing ubers is easier then ubers in this game, trust me I wouldn't even try.

Also your hyperbole is getting crazy, like less then 100 players may even have +10 GG mirror items. There is like the gross extreme hyperbole you have for average "trading/partying" players and the average self-found. Nobody takes you seriously if you legitimately think the difference between the average self found player and the average trader/player is "dozens of exalts" or "alot of GG gear."

For example your like "Well look at D2, at least I got a Zod rune. Thus better self-found then PoE"

What does that even mean? You are aware that a zod rune has a 0.00003 (After they buffed the shit out of rune drop rates in 1.10+) chance to drop (actual statistic by the way) and has 0% use to any self-found player unless you collect the 3-5 other high runes to create the runeword you want after finding a good base. It has the same drop rate somewhere between a mirror and an eternal orb.

It'll take 14,281,868,906,496 (14 trillion) el runes to make one zod rune on top of 362,797,056 Chipped Topazes, 120,932,352 Chipped Amethysts, 40,310,784 Chipped Sapphires, 13,436,928 Chipped Rubies, 4,478,976 Chipped Emeralds, 1,492,992 Chipped Diamonds, 497,664 Flawed Topazes, 165,888 Flawed Amethysts, 55,296 Flawed Sapphires, 18,432 Flawed Rubies, 6144 Flawed Emeralds, 2048 Flawed Diamonds, 1024 Topazes, 512 Amethysts, 256 Sapphires, 128 Rubies, 64 Emeralds, 32 Diamonds, 16 Flawless Topazes, 8 Flawless Amethysts, 4 Flawless Sapphires, 2 Flawless Rubies, and 1 Flawless Emerald.

By the same standard if I used alterations for el runes, I would only need at max 90,000 to get one mirror.

Agree with every word. I played D2 non-ladder and had no complete sets and no high runes -- I was in John's shoes in PoE.

D2's RNG is every bit as grindey and subject to the same randomness as PoE's.

"

RagnarokChu wrote:

"

johnKeys wrote:

and if you actually bothered reading my posts, Peter, you'd know I'm not asking for SSF to be equal to trading or MF grouping.
it can't. I even repeated that a couple times.

what I asked for is, while the traders and groupers get the whole loaf of bread, multiple times over - there's no reason for SSF or SF to be liquidating their brains grinding for bread crumbs.
it shouldn't be "all or nothing", and it shouldn't be mandatory trade - unless you are planning to have 5 copies of that 6-linked Shavs to Vaal Orb, or do a dozen Uber Atziri runs a day.

and now that I think we agree on the above, it would be even nicer for this "gear-is-actually-dropping" system to be encased in the golden box of risk/reward.
you get your share of dropping one GG Unique or mirror-grade rare (the kind traders have 10s of), but you need - and are encouraged to - beat some angry mother*** for that to happen, and you need to beat a couple angry mother****s to face that angry mother****.
a.k.a progression, in an over-simplified nutshell.

you know, I actually managed to do 2 Uber Tristram solo runs back in D2, and beat it once.
without taking any part in the Stone Of Jordan trade madness.
had a couple top-tier uniques, one full Natalya set, and one Zod rune too.
will I ever get to do one Uber Atziri, here? not likely. ever.
will I ever get to have one Shav/Kaom/CoE/etc, here? not likely, ever.
and 6-linking or off-coloring that is even more of a distant dream.

and when - both in story content and maps - the best loot (for me at least) just randomly drops off random rocks in zero-risk areas, I wonder what's even the point of facing the angry mother****s who can and do kill me? yes, even those who I can actually face because they aren't hiding behind a mountain of RNG only the grouper can climb, while the trader just walks around it.

You know I still have no idea why you use the "uber trishram" solo run example when you cannot run ubers in nonladder were most people played solo self found ~.~

Even then the gear to get is higher then uber level gear in this game and most of the D2 trading/partying and solo did not do ubers. Many players dreamed of having one zod rune or even stuff like engima or chains of honor in D2 that was legit ~.~

Also your complaining about dropping loot at "zero-risk areas" when all of the gear you just named in D2 were obtained in the exact same way.

If your going to tell me that doing ubers is easier then ubers in this game, trust me I wouldn't even try.

Also your hyperbole is getting crazy, like less then 100 players may even have +10 GG mirror items. There is like the gross extreme hyperbole you have for average "trading/partying" players and the average self-found. Nobody takes you seriously if you legitimately think the difference between the average self found player and the average trader/player is "dozens of exalts" or "alot of GG gear."

For example your like "Well look at D2, at least I got a Zod rune. Thus better self-found then PoE"

What does that even mean? You are aware that a zod rune has a 0.00003 (After they buffed the shit out of rune drop rates in 1.10+) chance to drop (actual statistic by the way) and has 0% use to any self-found player unless you collect the 3-5 other high runes to create the runeword you want after finding a good base. It has the same drop rate somewhere between a mirror and an eternal orb.

It'll take 14,281,868,906,496 (14 trillion) el runes to make one zod rune on top of 362,797,056 Chipped Topazes, 120,932,352 Chipped Amethysts, 40,310,784 Chipped Sapphires, 13,436,928 Chipped Rubies, 4,478,976 Chipped Emeralds, 1,492,992 Chipped Diamonds, 497,664 Flawed Topazes, 165,888 Flawed Amethysts, 55,296 Flawed Sapphires, 18,432 Flawed Rubies, 6144 Flawed Emeralds, 2048 Flawed Diamonds, 1024 Topazes, 512 Amethysts, 256 Sapphires, 128 Rubies, 64 Emeralds, 32 Diamonds, 16 Flawless Topazes, 8 Flawless Amethysts, 4 Flawless Sapphires, 2 Flawless Rubies, and 1 Flawless Emerald.

By the same standard if I used alterations for el runes, I would only need at max 90,000 to get one mirror.

Rose tinted nostalgia glasses status: REKT

Just by casually playing midlevel maps like this...



... I get about 150-200 jeweller orbs in a couple of hours.
Most from 6S items, some direct drops, the rest from vendoring identified rares for alterations for jewellers (vial Elreon lvl6).

200 jewellers = 50+ fusing (Vorici lvl 6), that's about 1 Ex per session.
On top of all the other stuff that drops, but that I mostly use (I alch maps and highlevel jewelry, I chaos maps, collect white stonehammers and use blacksmiths/armorers on them etc, so that stuff doesn't really stack).

I'm making an Ex a day.
Excluding actual good drops that sometimes happen, excluding other currency, just alt/jewellers/fusings.

Within a couple of days, I can buy stuff to fulfill my needs, within a couple of weeks, I can buy stuff to fulfill my dreams.
I'm steadily getting richer, and steadily getting closer to the items I want to have.

And while I'm doing this, there's still the chance that I get item upgrades on my own. This actually happens from time to time.

Yes, you don't want to "buy" for whatever reasons.
But there's "reward" enough in this game.
And enough "risk" too.

What will not ever happen, is this weird "risk/reward" as you imagine it.
The itemization system GGG has chosen for PoE does not allow for customized rewards.

Simply because the affix RNG is all over the place, and the game itself does not and can not know what a "reward" actually is for your character.

Engine talking: "Is that a reward? I saw you are playing a templar and holding a staff. So I dropped you this one. Pretty good, isn't it?"
Hell no, I want one like this:

...but with bigger numbers. What an unrewarding shitty game that is!

This also applies to:

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

Someone who is way invested in Evasion and Dex PROBABLY could use Dex dominant gear more than any other. Someone who is way invested in ES and Intel could PROBABLY use Int dominant gear more than any other. It is fairly simple to know what defensive/offensive base items naturally synergize with a particular build based off of its STR/INT/DEX balance.

No, it's not "fairly simple".
Maybe I'm wearing Evasion gear because I got nothing else?
Maybe I have Dex/Int because that's the area of the tree I'm spending my nodes in, but still want to wear Armor?
Maybe I'm holding a twohanded weapon just for levelling?
Maybe I'm a Marauder, but want to be a dodging elemental bowman later?

This game would be horrible if it actually only dropped stuff that it thinks you may need.

"

johnKeys wrote:

it shouldn't be "all or nothing", and it shouldn't be mandatory trade - unless you are planning to have

Trade is not mandatory to progress till A3M and maps, through maps (especially in soft-core leagues where you can get to A3M with all negative resistances). Atziri can be done by playing solo-selffound with a correct build (there are couple of such).

So then I ask - what exactly requires for a SSF player trading? Is it progression? Or you're just jealous of what other people own? Just be concise.

"

you get your share of dropping one GG Unique or mirror-grade rare (the kind traders have 10s of)

This is not true.

"

but you need - and are encouraged to - beat some angry mother*** for that to happen, and you need to beat a couple angry mother****s to face that angry mother****.
a.k.a progression, in an over-simplified nutshell.

You're asking for a guaranteed top-tier unique, mirror-tier item drop from the scariest monster. But how can something like that be implemented in game with a risk-reward being equal to everyone? I don't think it's possible to make such system.
For example Atziri drops same loot with same %chance for everyone, but there are builds that literally trivialize this fight. Then a question arises - how your risk/reward system would fix this inequality? And would it be free of possible exploits? To me it's very obvious answer - there is no way that you can implement such system, as it's not so shallow thing as you would think.

Currently we have higher tier affixes on items that are from higher level monsters/areas, higher tier unique items, base-items. You progress to higher areas - you get better loot, orbs.
Finding usable items when you're progressing is not a 0% thing, though depends on what one values as "usable". But with getting better and better items this chance drops with every piece of item being replaced.

"

you know, I actually managed to do 2 Uber Tristram solo runs back in D2, and beat it once.
without taking any part in the Stone Of Jordan trade madness.

Yes, and? Atziri can and has been done in an ssf environment as well. Or if you can't beat something - it can't be done?

"

had a couple top-tier uniques, one full Natalya set, and one Zod rune too.

Getting extremely lucky in a game that has worse drop rates than PoE isn't the best example.

"

will I ever get to do one Uber Atziri, here? not likely. ever.

It can be done, if you're farming Atziri. But a fairer comparison would be normal Atziri.

"

will I ever get to have one Shav/Kaom/CoE/etc, here? not likely, ever.

They're much more likely to find if you're not posting on forum all the time.

"

and 6-linking or off-coloring that is even more of a distant dream.

A guaranteed 6link is 1500 fusings, what can be acquired in 1-~2 months, if you're actually playing the game - you get tons of jewellers/alterations! Who would've known, right?

Wanting to 6 off is silly thought and should be seen as such.

Also one can get easier off-colours (-%required stats) and %link chance doing it from base item.

"

and when - both in story content and maps - the best loot (for me at least) just randomly drops off random rocks in zero-risk areas,

Another exaggeration from Mr.Keys. Also lets not forget that you're opening much more rocks/chests/vases/etc than killing an act-boss.

"

I wonder what's even the point of facing the angry mother****s who can and do kill me? yes, even those who I can actually face because they aren't hiding behind a mountain of RNG only the grouper can climb, while the trader just walks around it.

In order to sell your items - those items has to drop from something, and no they do not drop from rocks.
Some get lucky, some get extremely lucky, some take it on their hands and slay Piety/Dominus/Atziri till they've acquired needed item/s or gathered enough currency to buy item in question (which doesn't take long).
One can even sell gems at the start of the league and get couple of exalts from just that. Hell, even leveling/mid-tier items have demand!

It just seems that in your mind these "traders" are selling top-tier items all day erryday, but in reality vast majority are selling/gathering bit by bit.

ok, RagnarokChu - let's play nostalgia.

I was indeed extremely lucky to drop that Zod, but the thing is D2 had actual progression tiers.
one example - which counters half of what you said, including your numbers-rampage at the end - was you didn't drop Chipped Topaz in Nightmare and Hell, unlike in Path Of Exile.
item. tiers. basic and crude perhaps - which Median later improved immensely - but at least they were there.

and the risk/reward of items? well you did farm Story Mephisto/Diablo/Baal for those - but that was a heck of a lot riskier than running Ledge/Docks. Bremm fucking Sparkfist isn't your ordinary random barrel.
at least GGG got the Corrupted Boss == Lilith/Izual/Duriel parallel about right.
but they didn't yet make a Corrupted Zone as crazy as Furnace Of Pain, where not only the boss could crush you.

D2 is kind of a bad example, though. it was grindy as hell and the stuff I had took me literally years to get - but one thing it did have was some correlation between the content you are doing the the stuff you drop. very basic, but one that later games optimized and turned into real risk/reward.

PoE didn't. instead, PoE went backwards and said "the dice can roll anything, anywhere".
don't want dice? trade. exploit. MF in a full party with a Culler. multi-client. all methods that exist for the sole purpose of avoiding the dice game, that's as anti-risk/reward as it gets.
one of them, completely deliberate. trade. by design.

@Thaelyn, I agree Masters did a great service to self-found, but saying "now all SF problems are solved" is foolish.
not to mention Masters themselves are encouraging anything but solo play.
don't believe me? try and level one master to 8. just one, without taking "services" or joining in on other people's encounters/daily-missions.
and you don't need to finish this impossible task to get my point.
just get level 5-6 when they unlock crafting with high orbs that have no vendor recipes.

Masters, are a good band-aid.
but the game itself, from its core, is not risk/reward.

Comparing Ledge to D2 Act bosses, what?

5-6lvl masters use the same orbs - Chaos/Alchs. Divine mods are shit. Your argument is invalid.

Up to 6lvl masters offer everything you want - life/resists/ES-%ES/%phys-phys/etc rolls, there's no need for one to have lvl8.

"

johnKeys wrote:

item. tiers. basic and crude perhaps - which Median later improved immensely - but at least they were there.

You will not find an ambusher when farming cruel docks.
You will not find a tyrannical ambusher outside of a highlevel map.
You will not find any high tier affix combinations outside highlevel maps.

Yes, you can drop a Shavronne's Wrappings from a random monster in a random zone that allows "Occultist Vestments". But chances are way higher (still incredibly low, but higher) to find it on a high level map boss.

Maybe you should one day create a character with a build that can actually beat content and play it. That's where the good stuff drops.

---

Solo leveled Elreon to 6.9 so far in Rampage. 2-3 days a week, 4-5 hours each. Didn't even do half the daily missions, and had other masters instead of him for quite a while to get them to 6 as well.
No daily sharing, no party play whatsoever.
Gimme a league's time in standard league, and this guy is level 8. And while getting to 8, I'll probably have 6+ Exalted Orbs from drops alone. So i can craft multimods, selffound.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

You will not find an ambusher when farming cruel docks.

why would I want one, when I have a Rare Golden Kris I casually dropped in Cruel Docks, that's way better?
here's to progression, coming to a screeching halt.

"

You will not find a tyrannical ambusher outside of a highlevel map.

I will not find a Tyrannical Ambusher. period.

"

You will not find any high tier affix combinations outside highlevel maps.

let's ignore the fact stated above, that a combination of T2-T3 mods can make up a better item than a single-T1, and look past the fact I won't ever get that dream-T1 super-Ambusher.
do I have a noticeably better chance to get that once-in-a-lifetime dream Ambusher from running a crazy rare high level map and killing the "extra damage, extra speed, twinned" boss, compared to running a map one level lower white, and skipping the boss?

"

Yes, you can drop a Shavronne's Wrappings from a random monster in a random zone that allows "Occultist Vestments". But chances are way higher (still incredibly low, but higher) to find it on a high level map boss.

bullshit.

"

johnKeys wrote:

do I have a noticeably better chance to get that once-in-a-lifetime dream Ambusher from running a crazy rare high level map and killing the "extra damage, extra speed, twinned" boss, compared to running a map one level lower white, and skipping the boss?

Yes - dual-boss drops twice the loot, plus they both have increased rarity (boss) and quantity (map) drop.

But knowing your standards - noticeable means 100% drop from those bosses, heck even two of those items!

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

Peterlerock wrote:

You will not find an ambusher when farming cruel docks.

why would I want one, when I have a Rare Golden Kris I casually dropped in Cruel Docks, that's way better?

That golden cris would need some serious stats to beat an Ambusher with just "Rare rustic sash recipe + augment + master craft".
Do the recipe+augment a couple of times, and you can trash your golden cris.

"

"

You will not find a tyrannical ambusher outside of a highlevel map.

I will not find a Tyrannical Ambusher. period.

???
Start playing high level content, pick up blue ambushers and identify them.
Once in a while, a tyrannical one is among them.

Or, even simpler: grab a white one, roll a couple hundred alteration orbs on it.

Sorry, you don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

PoE has item tiers, and higher level content leads to better rewards.
Higher level content with a shitton of "dangerous" map mods leads to even more rewards.
"Skip the boss?"
Seriously?
Like half the loot from a map comes from the boss.