risk/reward isn't coming. ever. [I give up]

"

Xavderion wrote:

This business model might work on some people but most will fuck off pretty fast if the feel unrewarded for their time. I still play PoE because I actually do feel rewarded by the game. I just don't make that feeling dependent on a Shav drop or something stupid like that.

that's bad.

in a nutshell, good gear progression means you have a fair shot at obtaining anything in the game, at least once.
anything. from that iron hat from the first Zombie to a Shavronne's Wrappings, Kaom's Heart or whatnot.
progression also means where - in a wide context - you need to be, to get it.
Normal Hillock can get you a Brightbeak, but won't drop you your Shavs.
something in late-Merciless or Maps that can drop Occultist Vestments - can.
and that's where risk/reward comes in and says "yes, it is Merc/Maps, but you have a noticeably higher shot at this if you kill <insert insane mob/boss here> in <insert insane map here>, compared to just some barrel in <insert area name that's 20 levels lower and poses no threat at all>".
risk/reward, is there on top of progression, to encourage you to take risks rather than just mindless drone-grind.

note the "at least once".
the traders can have their multiples of each Shavs and Kaoms, and farm Uber Atziri all day every day - but if I, as self-found, feel perma-locked out of the high-end items, or perma-locked out of the high-end content when I'm at a point of the game where I should be able to reach it - that's bad. very bad.
nothing, at no point in the game be it early-game, mid-game or late-game, should feel "perma-locked unless you abandon your playing style".
self-found is and should be a valid playing style, just like trade and grouping are.
maybe less rewarding-for-time, but valid.


@Thaelyn, I'm sorry. I replied to you in haste thinking your post was one of those annoying Slayer-type "now it's fixed"/"no problem at all" posts.

but I do believe the same concept of progression should apply to Master crafting too, now that it's there.
we can argue all day whether or not Meta Mods are actually required for self-found or not, and when - but just like I replied to Xav, Meta Mods should not be locked out from the self-found.
especially since they can create the self-found's version, of what "mirror worthy" is to the traders.

ideally, Master Crafting should have been done with outside-of-economy ingredients you obtained by doing their missions, and not the usual Orbs.
that way, we'd also have coupling between leveling them, and using their crafting services.
but since Zana and Elreon want an Exalted Orb for their work, and Catarina wants a Divine for hers - there should be a way for me to obtain these, without trading or just relying on dumb luck.
make a Vendor Recipe. even a simple exchange. Chaos to Exalt. Regal to Divine. at double the rate they go for in the "economy". triple the rate. grindy as hell, but doable because both Chaos and Regals have ways to be generated as self-found.

GGG purposely left some orbs out of the vendor's reach - because they care about "economy" more than anything else.
because they really want you and me to trade.

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

So, what kind of armor does your Templar wear, in terms of STR/INT/DEX?

Do you not utilize ES as a significant form of defenses for this character?

Do you not prefer INT-related base types over non-INT-related types for your Templar, in general?

No, my dear genius, in practice armor type has no implicit connection to your stats. It's more often a matter of what gem colors your skills use, and in some cases those colors are idiosyncratic. And just because you have a lot of INT, that doesn't mean you're going to favor ES. My Templar has zero ES after taking Eldridge Battery and needs STR/DEX armor to support his melee attacks. Your Expert System would need an extensive database of builds to accurately predict choices like that.

"

RogueMage wrote:

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

So, what kind of armor does your Templar wear, in terms of STR/INT/DEX?

Do you not utilize ES as a significant form of defenses for this character?

Do you not prefer INT-related base types over non-INT-related types for your Templar, in general?

No, my dear genius, in practice armor type has no implicit connection to your stats. It's more often a matter of what gem colors your skills use, and in some cases those colors are idiosyncratic. And just because you have a lot of INT, that doesn't mean you're going to favor ES. My Templar has zero ES after taking Eldridge Battery and needs STR/DEX armor to support his melee attacks. Your Expert System would need an extensive database of builds to accurately predict choices like that.

Well, by design, armor types do have implicit connections to specific stats. And in general, a lot of INT does signify a preference for INT-related gear. Of course, this is a rule of thumb, not an absolute.

No database of builds; loot biasing would strictly be based on character data on a per character basis. Ideally, (maybe) all loot biasing factors would be directly tied to passive tree investments, so that your tree could literally influence the loot you find during solo play.

Since you have mentioned socket colours, I would like to mention how absurd it is to base armor choices on the colour of sockets you need. The decision should primarily be "what base item is defensively appropriate?", and colours should be a separate decision. The fact that how limiting off colour crafting is pushes players into basing armor selections on sockets rather than the fittingness of the DEFENSIVE qualities of the ARMOR is RAAAAAAR [Removed by Support].

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

Well, by design, armor types do have implicit connections to specific stats. And imho, a lot of INT does signify a preference for INT-related gear. Of course, this is a rule of thumb, not an absolute.

Fixed that for you.
You're not telling objective truths here, you got an opinion like I got one.

While theorycrafting, I choose my lines of defense, my offense, and try to put them into a tree.

Then I glance quickly at the stats and check if this can actually work ("maybe should get a bit more Dex if this is supposed to be an Evasion build, I cannot use Grace now").
So tree gets adapted a bit. Then I note that another road is maybe more efficient, and I adapt again, until I'm satisfied.

If I actually want Evasion or ES, I'll probably want some Dex and Int.
But not the other way around.
Having high Int does not automatically say I want ES gear.
In my personal preference it actually never implies this, as I don't like ES too much. ;)

"

The fact that how limiting off colour crafting is pushes players into basing armor selections on sockets rather than the fittingness of the DEFENSIVE qualities of the ARMOR is RAAAAAAR [Removed by Support].

You can easily craft 2-3 off colors on your gear these days.
4+ is still a bit rough, but then... why would you even try?

@JohnKeys
You have a good shot at getting good gear once in a while.
Gear that allows you to crush any content.
Stop crying for your Shavronne's Wrappings.

And the meta mod is not out of reach for Selffound.
It just takes a very long time to get to 8, and while getting there, you find 2+ Ex quite sure.

(Don't know what these "Ex do not drop" people are smoking. For every char lvl 80, I have found at least 2 of those shiny little bastards)

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

And in general, a lot of INT does signify a preference for INT-related gear. Of course, this is a rule of thumb, not an absolute.

Since you have mentioned socket colours, I would like to mention how absurd it is to base armor choices on the colour of sockets you need.

Remarkable how someone who thinks he can predict what type of gear you need has no fucking clue on what you may need to do to optimize your build.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

@JohnKeys
You have a good shot at getting good gear once in a while.
Gear that allows you to crush any content.
Stop crying for your Shavronne's Wrappings.

And the meta mod is not out of reach for Selffound.
It just takes a very long time to get to 8, and while getting there, you find 2+ Ex quite sure.

(Don't know what these "Ex do not drop" people are smoking. For every char lvl 80, I have found at least 2 of those shiny little bastards)

I disagree with Perfect Black about his idea of the biasing mechanism, and think it should be a lot more complicated than what he suggested

do you have ANY idea how utterly fucking annoying this "I got lucky, therefore game is fine and I don't understand those who aren't as lucky as I am" approach really is?
no, you don't. because if you did - you'd stop doing this.
unless you DO understand and are doing it on purpose.

all this "you find for sure/easily" and "stop crying about Shavs" bullshit has to stop, for me to actually take anything you write seriously. cut it the fuck out.
some people... yeah they don't fucking win at lotteries.
and in my 2 years of Path Of Exile, I was on both sides of the luck scale many times.
enough times, to understand it is in fact little more than simple dumb luck.
and when a lottery is the dominating factor in your progression - that's exactly what I want to change. it shouldn't be. your own skills and willingness to take-on crazy, should. and the game should encourage you to take on crazy - instead of encouraging you to either trade, become a human fucking bot, or both.

[Post Edited by Support]

"

johnKeys wrote:

do you have ANY idea how utterly fucking annoying this "I got lucky, therefore game is fine and I don't understand those who aren't as lucky as I am" approach really is?
no, you don't. because if you did - you'd stop doing this.
unless you DO understand and are doing it on purpose.

Do you have any idea how utterly fucking annyoing this "I got unlucky, therefore game sucks and I don't understand those who aren't as unlucky as I am" approach really is?
Do you have any idea how utterly fucking annyoing this "I want the best possible items, therefore game sucks and I don't understand those who are happy with >normal< items" approach really is?


You can get unlucky streaks in this game.
Everybody gets them.
But you also get your lucky streaks.

And all your conclusions seem to be drawn from the convincement that you're unlucky all the time.

"Map Bosses drop shit loot, better farm Docks"
No?
Map Bosses drop amazing loot sometimes. Not regularly, but often enough.
And I see absolutly no reason to stop farming them and going into Docks instead.
Why on earth would I want to do this?
No XP, no highlevel items, no highlevel maps.
Seems pointless to me.

"have to trade/become a human bot"
No?
With the addition of Masters, this has simply stopped.
And I'm talking lvl 5-6 masters.
If you really want, you can take your masters to 7-8 on your own, but it obviously takes very long. Still it is a) manageable and b) not necessary.

"Trade/Economy sucks"
If you don't like it for whatever reasons, then don't use it.
If you don't like the sun, go live in a country where it always rains, if that somehow makes you happy... But then don't complain about the weather.

You are biased in the most negative way one could imagine, so how can I take you seriously?

"

johnKeys wrote:

in a nutshell, good gear progression means you have a fair shot at obtaining anything in the game, at least once.
anything. from that iron hat from the first Zombie to a Shavronne's Wrappings, Kaom's Heart or whatnot.
progression also means where - in a wide context - you need to be, to get it.
Normal Hillock can get you a Brightbeak, but won't drop you your Shavs.
something in late-Merciless or Maps that can drop Occultist Vestments - can.
and that's where risk/reward comes in and says "yes, it is Merc/Maps, but you have a noticeably higher shot at this if you kill <insert insane mob/boss here> in <insert insane map here>, compared to just some barrel in <insert area name that's 20 levels lower and poses no threat at all>".
risk/reward, is there on top of progression, to encourage you to take risks rather than just mindless drone-grind.

note the "at least once".
the traders can have their multiples of each Shavs and Kaoms, and farm Uber Atziri all day every day - but if I, as self-found, feel perma-locked out of the high-end items, or perma-locked out of the high-end content when I'm at a point of the game where I should be able to reach it - that's bad. very bad.
nothing, at no point in the game be it early-game, mid-game or late-game, should feel "perma-locked unless you abandon your playing style".
self-found is and should be a valid playing style, just like trade and grouping are.
maybe less rewarding-for-time, but valid.

First of all, you are not permanently locked out of high-end items, you can find or chance them just fine. They are just super rare and that's fine. Secondly, with killing map bosses you indeed have a significantly higher chance to drop good items compared to a barrel, it's several hundred if not a couple of thousand percent higher actually. Here's a screenshot of some boss lewt, please show me a barrel that drops this and I'll farm it all day :D https://i.imgur.com/knwvb3P.jpg

"

Peterlerock wrote:

Do you have any idea how utterly fucking annyoing this "I got unlucky, therefore game sucks and I don't understand those who aren't as unlucky as I am" approach really is?

then you are not really reading my posts, now are you?

I got lucky yesterday. two Inner Treasure monsters. zombies. in one blue Dry Peninsula map.
one of them dropped me a pair of Voidbringer gloves, which completed my Burning Discharger's build gear-wise.
my response? happy, but "meh". "meh", because I know it is dumb luck.
I'd feel a hell of a lot better if those gloves dropped after an epic battle with some crazy boss or Exile or my-build-countering rare. and you know what? I'd even feel better if they dropped in that map from the boss. the double boss, who posed little threat really, but required quite a bit of thinking about how to separate 2 giant golems who make each other immortal.

and then next map (Tunnel) dropped a Mao Kun. from a white monster. after I already killed the boss and got complete trash I didn't even bother picking up.

"

You can get unlucky streaks in this game.
Everybody gets them.
But you also get your lucky streaks.

fuck luck streaks.
well not really, a good luck streak can be nice. yesterday's streak was nice.
but IT SHOULD NEVER BE what the loot system is based on.
you need to have other ways but simple dumb good streaks to get your gear, and you need to have pure-gameplay ways to get out of bad streaks. preferably, ones that encourage risk.
that's the whole. damned. point.
and if you don't get it by now - stop reading, tell me, and I'll stop responding to your posts.

"

"Trade/Economy sucks"

yes, it does. for me at least.
so why does the game do everything in its fucking power, to make me take part in it?
everything.
and even when GGG added the Masters - which are no doubt a huge improvement compared to the randomized shitfest of Open Beta - those masters have some of their crafting priced in high orbs.
high orbs, that deliberately have no way to be obtained besides trade.
or dumb luck.

"

johnKeys wrote:

and even when GGG added the Masters - which are no doubt a huge improvement compared to the randomized shitfest of Open Beta - those masters have some of their crafting priced in high orbs.
high orbs, that deliberately have no way to obtain besides trade.
or dumb luck.

Again and again and again:
The exalt recipes are not mandatory to beat this game.
They are "icing on the cake".

Exalts are aquired by RNG (what you call "dumb luck") or trade.
As any item in any ARPG.

Outside of super casual more RPGlike games (Fallout3 comes to mind), I haven't ever played a loot based game in which the best items were found by anything but grind, grind, grind until one day "dumb luck" sets in... or by trade.
This is how ARPGs work, how they have always worked and will always work.