The -15% exp penalty is obnoxiously bad outdated design.

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KrO wrote:

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Undon3 wrote:

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KrO wrote:

Its the WoW effect, everyone feels entitled to access the later content even if they have put in far less effort than the other people they see reaching it, one of many reason I never bothered with that game.

Yet you talk about WoW like you KNOW what it is about. You're plainly wrong. WoW community is very structured. Casuals never get to see heroic raiding and serious PvP, only after there is a new expansion and they can overlevel enough so they can faceroll through older stuff, but nobody cares about it then.

So to be clear: in WoW, the hardcores have heroic/PvP 2200+ content, inaccessible to casuals, because they lack skills, dedication and gear. Casuals can enjoy LFR difficulty (Look For Raid...) difficulty, with same loot - but with much less stats, and MANY times they are dying there too :\ Then there is the Normal raid, which causuals most of the times never see until it is obsolete in terms of drops because of new patch/expansion, and then there is Heroic raiding for the hardcores, with even better loot and even challenging PvE content.

Blizzard came to this conclusion: they put an immense amount of effort in end-game content (raids). Maybe 1% of the community used to see it, so it was frustrating to the team. Hence they created difficulties LFR/Normal/Heroic - and everybody could experience the content, get rewards based on difficulty and players were happy, and Blizz were happy too.

Well no I have not played that game, but that's what I have heard from many, many people who I respect their opinions on gaming, the type of people who would not be crying on a arpg forum because there is a penalty for bad play.

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Nagisawa wrote:

So in the end, no one knows what this brings in the name of 'FUN'. All I see is the same reiterations of 'STFU NOOB! This game is for REAL gamers, go back and play X, loser!'

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ljubisa24 wrote:

In effect they made a game they want to play themselves so i guess they dont care about making money on a good game model they made by adjusting some stuff.

It will in that case end up being a little bit bigger operation then a LAN party.

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iamstryker wrote:

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Nagisawa wrote:

So in the end, no one knows what this brings in the name of 'FUN'. All I see is the same reiterations of 'STFU NOOB! This game is for REAL gamers, go back and play X, loser!'

I have pointed out what it brings to the game plenty without saying anything like STFU noob. Having dieing matter in this game carries the same importance as most other video games. In other games you have to start over from the last save/check point. Thats losing progression. Do people complain about that? I know a game that did that. It was one of the newer prince of persia games. When you died you were simply picked up and put right back where you died without losing anything. People complained that it was too easy and dumbed down. The same thing applies here. Without a good death penalty the game would be silly. I would always walk around in full magic find and not care at all if I died. It doesn't open up cool build possibilities. Just builds that don't spec into defense at all and don't care if they die multiple times in one map. Fearing death is fun and challenging to many players including myself. I really don't see GGG removing it. Maybe they can tweak it or something but I really don't think removing it is an option. Unless of course its another league.

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tackle70 wrote:

I think the problem is that all the elitists feel less elite when casuals can enjoy the game.

This has nothing to do with my arguments at all. If it was in a separate league I wouldn't care at all. But if it changes default then it does affect me also.

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tackle70 wrote:

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humakti wrote:

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dashgalaxy86 wrote:

...is that some people want the game to be easier, while others want the game to stay true to the original vision.

I guess I just fail to see what all the arguing is about.

How does having a league that is easier while retaining the harder leagues not keep the original vision of the game?

I do not think they should make hardcore easier. I am fine if Default league stays the same.

Adding a new league that is easier in that you do not have a death penalty or can redo your skills more easily will just mean one thing.

More casual players will move to that easier format and those who want more challenge or hardcore play will move to those Leagues.

I guess i fail to see what the issue is to this suggestion.

Does it diminish your sense of satisfaction in a game if someone can kill things in an easier mode than you are playing in?

Why do you care at all what some I think we were called "scrubs" by some do in this easier mode?

It is not like I am suddenly going to break out of this scrub league and own the hardcore players with some new found skill.

I think the problem is that all the elitists feel less elite when casuals can enjoy the game.

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dashgalaxy86 wrote:

Chris say that they hope to "create" harcore players out of young gamers

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Undon3 wrote:

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dashgalaxy86 wrote:

Chris say that they hope to "create" harcore players out of young gamers

An educational game. Amazing :) If only I were young, I'd be looking forward towards my "hardcore" transformation... I'm sorry if this comes as sarcastic, but it is actually quite funny.
I suppose at least some dev opinions and insight in this looong thread would be welcome. Seems like they don't feel like clarifying anything and are pondering what to do not to alienate the n00b masses while also keeping the hardcores. Hope the pondering won't take too long, the topic is just a pure example of a "will not budge" situation. Whatever the arguments, I've yet to see a person from either camp being convinced by what the others had to say...

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tackle70 wrote:

Honestly I still am not sure I understand why the XP penalty is seen as inherently linked to both difficulty and hardcore-ness.

Those are three different and only tangentially related issues in my mind.

The XP penalty, included or not, is not the same as difficulty (easy or hard), which is not the same thing as hardcore-ness (hardcore/casual).

I think that's my fundamental problem with a lot of both sides of this discussion. I'm not sure even how to engage it one way or another because I just don't agree with the linking of those 3 things.