The -15% exp penalty is obnoxiously bad outdated design.
" A fair point on the surface, but in general "hardcore" players want to be punished for failure/death, while casuals feel they don't have the time/motivation to make up for lost XP and would prefer another/no penalty. The debate is about consequences for being bad. I think the problem is all traditional penalties (corpse runs, gold deductions) just wouldn't work well or are much worse than this. The only other thing I could think of is temporary skill point deductions, but I don't know how that'd work since you don't choose skills in a linear order that the game tracks. Last edited by teacherpeter#1699 on Feb 13, 2013, 9:41:37 PM
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" That's why I don't understand why people act like this game would be less "hardcore" if they changed the XP penalty. I don't think people realize how wishy-washy some of the concepts they try to argue for are. What it really comes down to is that some players here have one set of preferences and another set have different preferences. It boggles my mind that people feel the need to label those who disagree with them with whatever term they find derogatory at the moment, rather than just engaging the argument. (-edit- when there aren't real arguments to engage, I think it's fair to do this as it's a sort of response-in-kind, but I don't understand doing it to legit arguments) And I'll say it again, just so people don't get the wrong idea - I actually LIKE the idea of a death penalty, I just think it's a little clumsy and arbitrary in its current state and could be designed better, in order to still discourage/punish death but not be frustrating/depressing to some. The 352nd character to hit Level 100 in Standard The 82nd character to hit Delve 1000 in Standard Last edited by tackle70#1293 on Feb 13, 2013, 9:42:27 PM
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" True, but in that case shouldn't we just default to the vision of the developers? This is their game, after all, not yours. You're playing it and you didn't even buy it. It never passed into your possession. Hardcore and Casual are just an attempt to label groups based on their general views, just as it's done in politics with the terms Liberal and Conservative. Last edited by teacherpeter#1699 on Feb 13, 2013, 9:44:25 PM
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" But I did give them money ;) Anyways, I've tried to be clear on this - I don't really have a problem with things the way they are now. I can just understand why the less "hardcore" players, to use that term, might find it frustrating, and I think that the system could be mechanically improved to serve both sides of the coin equally well. I like the idea of an XP penalty but I think it should be based on earned-xp-to-level not total-to-go XP. That's my proposal anyways - having not seen it in action that idea could obv be total garbage. I also think this issue will become less of one once the game 1) Is balanced 2) Is not laggy My suspicion is that most (obv not all) players who get bothered by this only really get irritated enough to come post on forums when they feel they've been handed a cheap death that wasn't fair (lag/something being balanced badly). For example, I died 3 times doing the Shadow of the Vaal quest earlier today at level 64, and it basically wiped out all the XP I had earned from all the Act 2 quests combined. It kinda sucked, but you know what? I was playing in a big party and I was being careless and not paying attention for two of those times, and it didn't really bother me - I was more irritated at myself for being stupid than anything else. Then a third time, I got desynced into the middle of a can't-die mob and basically 1-shotted from lag. That pissed me off big time, because it wasn't fair in any way shape or form. The 352nd character to hit Level 100 in Standard The 82nd character to hit Delve 1000 in Standard Last edited by tackle70#1293 on Feb 13, 2013, 9:52:33 PM
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The dying mechanic in ARPGS isn't there to punish players, its there to say "you are clearly doing content thats way above your level, go grind or do something else"
Like i said before, there should be a penalty, in many cases there already is penalties. In D3, you don't lose exp, you lose time (and quite a lot of it) which is just as bad as exp (since in that time you lose, you can be getting exp), its not quite as harsh, but thats the point My main gripe for exp penalty on death is its a stupid way to penalize, especially considering how much exp it actually takes to complete your build in this game (in most other ARPGs, builds pretty much finish around level 50-60, anything after that is just adding stats to your character). In PoE its a completely different story however Furthermore, the death penalty penalizes certain builds (such as melees) a lot more more than other builds (non melee, i.e. ranged) I liked TL's death system because it was agnostic to what type of character you were, simply because you could choose the death penalty. Something like that is what PoE needs |
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" Thing is, my actual opinion on the subject got lost on the many pages somewhere. I never asked for the XP penalty to be taken out of the game, I only pointed out that the way it is now, it is extremely unfair to higher levels. I believe that across a difficulty, the penalty should be the same for any player, so a lvl 80 that dies would not have to grind a day to recuperate what a lvl 60-ish can do in 30 mins. A few people came with the "argument" that the higher you are, the harder you must fall, which I disagree with, this is a virtual world. My argument is that the game should strive for balance and fairness. I hope balance&fairness are not against the developer's vision, although the "competitive" loot system worries me. My other point is that while I want a penalty for death, I understand and empathise with those that feel it is excessive, because you lose TIME, and this is the 5th time I think I say it on the forums, but it needs to be reiterated, as I never saw anybody noticing my words, which are really relevant to this subject: Time is the most valuable resource in the world. It never returns to you once spent. PoE=Virtual World-->Virtual Penalty. Not IRL penalty from this most valuable resource, or if it must be time, then make it reasonable. Given the fact that death can happen so easy in PoE, the time penalty should never be more than 30-40 minutes, because they accumulate. placeholder for creative sig
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" Actually anything more than 10 minutes in this game would be considered ridiculous, look at how much flak D3 got for its timer on death system The main reason for this is how it breaks up pacing, pacing in these games are often quite fast. To then have to stare at a screen is incredibly annoying. |
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I find it kind of hard to believe that this thread has made 45 pages. The xp penalty isn't that huge of a deal. If you cant handle an area you need to back off it, get better gear, tune up your build and try again when you are actually ready for the content.
If you don't like the idea of having to grind an area for xp/gear, maybe you picked the wrong game. You are going to have to grind xp at some point. You are going to have to grind gear at some point. Not only is it an ARPG with random based gear where you have to grind and pray to the RNG gods, its also made by a company called Grinding Gear Games. Did you really think you would not have to grind anything ever? |
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" Of course its more difficult to some extent. Without a death penalty you can basically do what you want and you will still level about as fast as not dieing at all. With a death penalty you have to spec defense, not play content to far ahead of your level, and pay more attention or else you will lose progress. If you die a lot then you simply won't level. One of these is more challenging than the other. Standard Forever
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" Like I said, they're tangentially related issues. My concern is that the discussion isn't helpful when people simply identify the two things, so that the discussion devolves into those who want an "easy" game vs a "hard" game. Extreme example just to illustrate my hang up on the discussion: Game has no more death penalty, all monsters given infinite HP. All of a sudden then, the game has an impossible difficulty level, without penalizing you when you die. I know that's a stupid example, but what I'm trying to say is that I think there can be a discussion of the mechanics and merits of an XP-penalty-on-death system without necessarily discussing difficulty (and I think such a discussion would be more helpful and interesting to both sides). If the only reason for the xp penalty is difficulty, and some people want it removed, then why not consider it? There's a zillion ways to keep difficulty the exact same without the XP penalty. There's got to be a mechanical reason to keep the XP penalty system, unrelated to difficulty, or else it doesn't have any special merit. I think there is - I think it's the most effective way to prevent what gets described as "zerging down bosses", but I think that some tweaks could make the system better. The 352nd character to hit Level 100 in Standard The 82nd character to hit Delve 1000 in Standard Last edited by tackle70#1293 on Feb 14, 2013, 2:37:12 AM
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