The -15% exp penalty is obnoxiously bad outdated design.

"

deteego wrote:

you are acting as if you know more than other people and you are arguing as if you are doing it from GGG's position

What do you think GGG's stance is on the EXP penalty? You're right about one thing: I shouldn't say I know more than you, because I don't know what you know, but I do know what I know, if that makes sense. I'm attempting to argue from that position, and make the point that not everyone, devs and the game's base included, think the penalty is bad design. My apologies for grandstanding if you feel that's what I did.

EDIT: I checked the link you sent me. Going by that definition, or the definition I know, I did not grandstand. I did not put on a show, and I do not think my message suffered for it. I just tried to produce some coherent argument and evidence that could be supported. If you feel that is grandstanding, I just don't know how to respond.

"

Baron01 wrote:

You just posted bunch of bullshit as you said it yourself. The only thing you achieved is to further derail the discussion from the OP. Entitlement to or business model were not discussed here at large. Get a grip before you post.

PS. I have kept the quote intact just to show how much of the bullshit was posted

The discussion in the OP was about the EXP penalty. This thread is 43 pages long. Everything that could have been said on the issue has already been said. In my post I addressed the core issue, and that is that some people want the game to be easier, while others want the game to stay true to the original vision. And I do feel that there is a general sense of entitlement present in people who demand changes that are possibly against the devs' philosophy. I could be wrong, and it certainly is case-by-case, but there it is.

PS I'd love to hear which part is bullshit. I hate to put up a bad argument. My apologies in advance.

"

KrO wrote:

Its the WoW effect, everyone feels entitled to access the later content even if they have put in far less effort than the other people they see reaching it, one of many reason I never bothered with that game.

Yet you talk about WoW like you KNOW what it is about. You're plainly wrong. WoW community is very structured. Casuals never get to see heroic raiding and serious PvP, only after there is a new expansion and they can overlevel enough so they can faceroll through older stuff, but nobody cares about it then.

So to be clear: in WoW, the hardcores have heroic/PvP 2200+ content, inaccessible to casuals, because they lack skills, dedication and gear. Casuals can enjoy LFR difficulty (Look For Raid...), with same loot - but with much less stats on items, and MANY times they are dying there too :\ Then there is the Normal raid, which casuals most of the times never see until it is obsolete in terms of drops because of new patch/expansion, and then there is Heroic raiding for the hardcores, with even better loot and even challenging PvE content. To be quite honest, a big part of WoW players don't even touch the Normal 5 man dungeons, and then there are those that do Normal 5 mans, but will feel overwhelmed by the 5 man Heroics.

Blizzard came to this conclusion: they put an immense amount of effort in end-game content (raids). Maybe 1% of the community used to see it, so it was frustrating to the team. Hence they created difficulties LFR/Normal/Heroic - and everybody could experience the content, get rewards based on difficulty and players were happy, and Blizz were happy too. I've say it before, saying it again: it is all about personalised delivery of content.

This game doesn't NEED a death penalty because its hardcore. This game isn't really super mega hardcore. Its just a throw back ARPG that requires some thought and effort to play. It needs a death penalty so that it keeps the deep rewarding experience for the player base as a whole. If there is enough interest in a separate league thats one thing but removing the death penalty for default would be game changing for everyone. It would cheapen the game difficulty and make dieing pointless to the experience. May as well make everyone invincible.

Yes dieing sucks sometimes. Its happened to me plenty recently. But its an important mechanic to the game. Please offer logical alternatives instead of just saying that its horrible and to remove it.

I don't really see losing items as a good alternative.

So in the end, no one knows what this brings in the name of 'FUN'. All I see is the same reiterations of 'STFU NOOB! This game is for REAL gamers, go back and play X, loser!'

"

iamstryker wrote:

This game doesn't NEED a death penalty because its hardcore. This game isn't really super mega hardcore. Its just a throw back ARPG that requires some thought and effort to play. It needs a death penalty so that it keeps the deep rewarding experience for the player base as a whole. If there is enough interest in a separate league thats one thing but removing the death penalty for default would be game changing for everyone. It would cheapen the game difficulty and make dieing pointless to the experience. May as well make everyone invincible.

Yes dieing sucks sometimes. Its happened to me plenty recently. But its an important mechanic to the game. Please offer logical alternatives instead of just saying that its horrible and to remove it.

I don't really see losing items as a good alternative.

I mostly agree with you. But at end game the whole point of the exp penalty breaks down.

Maybe the penalty shouldn't be percentage based and instead be a number that increases every level and flattens out towards the end.

"

dashgalaxy86 wrote:

...is that some people want the game to be easier, while others want the game to stay true to the original vision.

I guess I just fail to see what all the arguing is about.

How does having a league that is easier while retaining the harder leagues not keep the original vision of the game?

I do not think they should make hardcore easier. I am fine if Default league stays the same.

Adding a new league that is easier in that you do not have a death penalty or can redo your skills more easily will just mean one thing.

More casual players will move to that easier format and those who want more challenge or hardcore play will move to those Leagues.

I guess i fail to see what the issue is to this suggestion.

Does it diminish your sense of satisfaction in a game if someone can kill things in an easier mode than you are playing in?

Why do you care at all what some I think we were called "scrubs" by some do in this easier mode?

It is not like I am suddenly going to break out of this scrub league and own the hardcore players with some new found skill.

"

humakti wrote:

"

dashgalaxy86 wrote:

...is that some people want the game to be easier, while others want the game to stay true to the original vision.

I guess I just fail to see what all the arguing is about.

How does having a league that is easier while retaining the harder leagues not keep the original vision of the game?

I do not think they should make hardcore easier. I am fine if Default league stays the same.

Adding a new league that is easier in that you do not have a death penalty or can redo your skills more easily will just mean one thing.

More casual players will move to that easier format and those who want more challenge or hardcore play will move to those Leagues.

I guess i fail to see what the issue is to this suggestion.

Does it diminish your sense of satisfaction in a game if someone can kill things in an easier mode than you are playing in?

Why do you care at all what some I think we were called "scrubs" by some do in this easier mode?

It is not like I am suddenly going to break out of this scrub league and own the hardcore players with some new found skill.

I think the problem is that all the elitists feel less elite when casuals can enjoy the game.

"

Undon3 wrote:

"

KrO wrote:

Its the WoW effect, everyone feels entitled to access the later content even if they have put in far less effort than the other people they see reaching it, one of many reason I never bothered with that game.

Yet you talk about WoW like you KNOW what it is about. You're plainly wrong. WoW community is very structured. Casuals never get to see heroic raiding and serious PvP, only after there is a new expansion and they can overlevel enough so they can faceroll through older stuff, but nobody cares about it then.

So to be clear: in WoW, the hardcores have heroic/PvP 2200+ content, inaccessible to casuals, because they lack skills, dedication and gear. Casuals can enjoy LFR difficulty (Look For Raid...) difficulty, with same loot - but with much less stats, and MANY times they are dying there too :\ Then there is the Normal raid, which causuals most of the times never see until it is obsolete in terms of drops because of new patch/expansion, and then there is Heroic raiding for the hardcores, with even better loot and even challenging PvE content.

Blizzard came to this conclusion: they put an immense amount of effort in end-game content (raids). Maybe 1% of the community used to see it, so it was frustrating to the team. Hence they created difficulties LFR/Normal/Heroic - and everybody could experience the content, get rewards based on difficulty and players were happy, and Blizz were happy too.

Well no I have not played that game, but that's what I have heard from many, many people who I respect their opinions on gaming, the type of people who would not be crying on a arpg forum because there is a penalty for bad play.

"

Nagisawa wrote:

So in the end, no one knows what this brings in the name of 'FUN'. All I see is the same reiterations of 'STFU NOOB! This game is for REAL gamers, go back and play X, loser!'

I have pointed out what it brings to the game plenty without saying anything like STFU noob. Having dieing matter in this game carries the same importance as most other video games. In other games you have to start over from the last save/check point. Thats losing progression. Do people complain about that? I know a game that did that. It was one of the newer prince of persia games. When you died you were simply picked up and put right back where you died without losing anything. People complained that it was too easy and dumbed down. The same thing applies here. Without a good death penalty the game would be silly. I would always walk around in full magic find and not care at all if I died. It doesn't open up cool build possibilities. Just builds that don't spec into defense at all and don't care if they die multiple times in one map. Fearing death is fun and challenging to many players including myself. I really don't see GGG removing it. Maybe they can tweak it or something but I really don't think removing it is an option. Unless of course its another league.

"

tackle70 wrote:

I think the problem is that all the elitists feel less elite when casuals can enjoy the game.

This has nothing to do with my arguments at all. If it was in a separate league I wouldn't care at all. But if it changes default then it does affect me also.

"

tackle70 wrote:

I think the problem is that all the elitists feel less elite when casuals can enjoy the game.

If you mean "the elitists feel a little less elite when the game is easier," then yes, they would feel less elite. Everyone would feel less elite, except for those so oblivious that they can't tell the difference between a congratulations message and an actual accomplishment.

Feeling elite is important. It's one of the main psychological factors behind gaming. Making the game harder might make you temporarily feel outclassed, but if you do manage to beat the content after numerous defeats... how epic do you feel then? How elite do you feel?

The game should be hard. So hard that, when you beat content, you feel like you're special. You're part of a group that's better than the average gamer. You might even feel like... an elitist.

I'm not saying we should be jerks to one another, and especially not to new players who are having trouble, but your argument against elitism is the opposite of productive. Good-natured elitism (definition 3) is what we're aiming for.

Please follow the link in my signature and read the article for more on this topic.