Trade Hate: Which one takes more skill?

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iamstryker wrote:

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Are you joking? I read this entire thread, I don't give a shit what has been posted in OTHER threads but in THIS thread any argument given has been completely destroyed. The entire thread turned into literally like 5 pages of someone posting how "it's because we want it whats wrong with that?" which I explained is literally retarded and makes no sense,

This isn't a self found league thread so I don't know why your surprised or upset that arguments for why people want it haven't been spelled out for you. It doesn't sound to me though that you care why others want it but of course there's a lot more to it than "because we want it". Of course "because we want it" wouldn't make sense by itself so maybe you should ask the SFL supporters why they want it and try listening.

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and now you pass off me saying no legitimate argument exists by saying "oh I don't need to bother giving an argument because we have different opinions". Rofl this must be a fucking joke. This is why you are never, ever, getting your league.

I've posted on this many times and I don't need to repeat myself because someone in a thread is yelling about it. I linked you to a long SFL thread if your dieing to learn just go read. But I brought up opinions because what it comes down to is opinions. Of course people who don't care about a SFL are going to say that its not needed, thats obvious. People who are interested in playing it are going to ask for it.

I don't think you understand. It doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is but GGG. GGG has stated they designed this game to be the game they want to play, and that a major part of that is a barter based economy. The people saying they want it have to explain how introducing a self found league would further GGG's vision of the game in order for it to have any merit whatsoever. I believe no argument exists which can show this to be the case, and you are wrong, I am open to an argument being give, I just don't think one exists. So far you have done nothing to prove otherwise. As for the other thread, I read some of it and it basically seems to be a bunch of people saying why they want a self found league not why it would further GGG's vision of the game. Maybe something is in there somewhere, there is no way I'm looking through 130+ pages though, sorry. It would be much easier for you to give literally one argument relevant to what I am saying then for me to do that.

From what I can tell it all boils down this: GGG designed a game intending it to be played a specific way by a specific audience. Some people don't like the way the game works. That's fine, like you said everyone is entitled to their opinion. The part I don't get is why those people think that because they have this opinion it means GGG should ignore their own vision of what the game should be to appease these random people who clearly want to be playing a different game. I get that some people like the rest of the game but hate trading, and that really sucks for those people, but I don't think GGG has any obligation to introduce this random league that they never intended to be in the game and split the player base even further just because some people that clearly are not even part of their target audience want it.

I just cannot comprehend how people can read this:

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Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. We're a small independent team of hardcore gamers based in New Zealand and have created Path of Exile as the game that we'd want to play ourselves. It is designed around a strong barter-based online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races.

and then try to suggest things that do not fit into that design model at all and wonder why GGG isn't paying attention to them. IMHO these people need to accept this isn't going to happen and continue playing, or accept this isn't going to happen and quit.

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iamstryker wrote:

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Are you joking? I read this entire thread, I don't give a shit what has been posted in OTHER threads but in THIS thread any argument given has been completely destroyed. The entire thread turned into literally like 5 pages of someone posting how "it's because we want it whats wrong with that?" which I explained is literally retarded and makes no sense,

This isn't a self found league thread so I don't know why your surprised or upset that arguments for why people want it haven't been spelled out for you. It doesn't sound to me though that you care why others want it but of course there's a lot more to it than "because we want it". Of course "because we want it" wouldn't make sense by itself so maybe you should ask the SFL supporters why they want it and try listening.

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and now you pass off me saying no legitimate argument exists by saying "oh I don't need to bother giving an argument because we have different opinions". Rofl this must be a fucking joke. This is why you are never, ever, getting your league.

I've posted on this many times and I don't need to repeat myself because someone in a thread is yelling about it. I linked you to a long SFL thread if your dieing to learn just go read. But I brought up opinions because what it comes down to is opinions. Of course people who don't care about a SFL are going to say that its not needed, thats obvious. People who are interested in playing it are going to ask for it.

That's fine until you consider implementation. It's cheaper for GGG not to implement it than to do it, so the onus rests on the pro-SFL players to provide a really good reason why it should be in the game. Opinions and ideas are cheap, so there needs to be some solid reasoning and incentive for GGG to pursue it if it should ever be a reality. This is the core of the issue, and the pro-SFL players never give a straight answer with a strong argument as a foundation. That is why this is even an issue in this thread.

Also, if you have read that huge thread and are convinced of the argument yourself, you should be able to easily spell out the important points in this thread instead of asking someone to dig for hours for what you were referring to. All of these threads get filled up with tons of garbage responses, so it's hard to weed them out and find the meat of the subject in them. Do us a favor and just tell us here. You can even quote/copy them from the other thread since you know what you're looking for. Failing that, provide a solid argument of your own.

If you can't be hassled to do it, don't ask others to. After all, it's easier to let it get buried in the shit pile of useless responses in those threads and just ignore it until it eventually goes away. Better ideas have come and gone in such a manner.

Also, I'm not strictly hostile to the idea. I simply have not heard a compelling argument in favor of it. I'm willing to hear one, but don't be surprised if it is countered by a stronger position.

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I don't think you understand. It doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is but GGG. GGG has stated they designed this game to be the game they want to play, and that a major part of that is a barter based economy. The people saying they want it have to explain how introducing a self found league would further GGG's vision of the game in order for it to have any merit whatsoever.

I don't agree with you. If you think this game is 100% only what GGG staff want to play themselves then your kidding yourself, its not. They have made changes according to player feedback. A player only needs to explain what problem they have with the game and what solution they think would help.

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I believe no argument exists which can show this to be the case, and you are wrong, I am open to an argument being give, I just don't think one exists. So far you have done nothing to prove otherwise.

I have tried to help direct you to those arguments but you don't seem interested. I haven't given you my own opinion on the issue yet because I'm pretty convinced it wouldn't matter. I think your minds made up regardless.

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It would be much easier for you to give literally one argument relevant to what I am saying then for me to do that.

As I said before your not interested in what I think, your interested in only hearing arguments ran through your GGG vision filter. I am a customer of GGG and they deserve to know what I think regardless of whether or not you think it fits their vision.

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but I don't think GGG has any obligation to introduce this random league that they never intended to be in the game and split the player base even further just because some people that clearly are not even part of their target audience want it.

Well GGG did help these arguments along by in the beginning promising paid leagues. Most SFL supporters are more than willing to pay for the league. If this game was meant to have player supported leagues from the beginning then a SFL really isn't that crazy of an idea.

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

That's fine until you consider implementation. It's cheaper for GGG not to implement it than to do it, so the onus rests on the pro-SFL players to provide a really good reason why it should be in the game. Opinions and ideas are cheap, so there needs to be some solid reasoning and incentive for GGG to pursue it if it should ever be a reality.

If it has enough people supporting it and wanting to pay for it then why would there need to be a reason beyond that?

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iamstryker wrote:

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

That's fine until you consider implementation. It's cheaper for GGG not to implement it than to do it, so the onus rests on the pro-SFL players to provide a really good reason why it should be in the game. Opinions and ideas are cheap, so there needs to be some solid reasoning and incentive for GGG to pursue it if it should ever be a reality.

If it has enough people supporting it and wanting to pay for it then why would there need to be a reason beyond that?

In and of itself, nothing. That would be completely fine. However, how do you mean to demonstrate that (a) there is a large enough support base for it, and (b) that these people are willing to pay to play this league? Monetary incentive is a good enough reason for GGG to at least consider it. But you also run into a problem I mentioned earlier in the thread that, among pro-SFL players, they cannot even agree on what rules the league should have, so how do you remediate that too?

Again, implementation rears its ugly head.

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rrtson wrote:

Does it require more skill and/or knowledge about the game to:

• 1. Kill monsters for currency/items
• 2. Understand the currency/item market trends
• 3. Manage your "bankroll" to balance the risk/reward of buying/selling certain items
• 4. Successfully negotiate with other human players to strike a deal

or

• 1. Kill monsters, hoping for a lucky drop

Kill more monsters, hoping for a lucky drop.

What the OP is doing is making it sound dumber than it is.
Organized groups that clear high level maps quickly with a dedicated MF culler are some of the wealthiest players in the game.

In the early weeks of a league, the fastest and most competitive players also have more of an economic edge because they're ahead of the curve and items haven't devaluated just yet. Simply being able to sell off 76 maps will make you quite a lot of money. (Again, earlier is better.)

In a more extreme example:
Atziri is an example of a trend you can't take advantage of by standing in town flipping items.

What he lists as "trading skills" are really just the minimum required to trade at all.
And flippers and town campers are looked down upon with justifiable reason.

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DeviantLightning wrote:

What he lists as "trading skills" are really just the minimum required to trade at all.
And flippers and town campers are looked down upon with justifiable reason.

I liked your first edition better. =)

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

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DeviantLightning wrote:

What he lists as "trading skills" are really just the minimum required to trade at all.
And flippers and town campers are looked down upon with justifiable reason.

I liked your first edition better. =)

*shrugs*
Okay. Flippers are the equivalent of wall street leeches and middle men who inject themselves between the supplier and customer to pocket their percentage without producing anything of value.

Exactly. That's why people hate them in games. They contribute nothing, but inflate prices.

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I don't agree with you. If you think this game is 100% only what GGG staff want to play themselves then your kidding yourself, its not. They have made changes according to player feedback. A player only needs to explain what problem they have with the game and what solution they think would help.

Oh really? Because the only change I have seen to back that up is the introduction of permanent allocation, which was not a major part of their design in the first place. Sure, Chris liked short allocation better but it really wasn't a huge part of the game, unlike trading which is literally described in the overview of the game as being what the entire game is designed around.

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As I said before your not interested in what I think, your interested in only hearing arguments ran through your GGG vision filter. I am a customer of GGG and they deserve to know what I think regardless of whether or not you think it fits their vision.

What does that even mean? I said countless times I AM interested in hearing an actual argument. All you keep doing is spewing bullshit about how your opinion somehow matters. Why do you think GGG should base the game around what some random people think? It's one thing to make suggestions that improve the game and fix problems that they didn't intend to exist, its another to demand them to change their entire design to be what you want. If I asked for them to introduce pay to win elements such as paying for a respec, or for more cartoony cosmetic skins, that would be utterly ridiculous since both those things go against the core design of the game. But that is literally exactly the same thing you are doing by asking for a self found league. It's not that I "think it doesn't fit their vision", it literally says in plain text on this site that they want this game based around trade, just because you refuse to accept that fact doesn't make it untrue.

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Well GGG did help these arguments along by in the beginning promising paid leagues. Most SFL supporters are more than willing to pay for the league. If this game was meant to have player supported leagues from the beginning then a SFL really isn't that crazy of an idea.

Yeah I am going to need a source on this, so I can see exactly what they said. If GGG is ok with a self found league I wouldn't give a shit, I just see no evidence at all to suggest that being the case.

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I haven't given you my own opinion on the issue yet because I'm pretty convinced it wouldn't matter. I think your minds made up regardless.

I'm calling bullshit. You haven't given me an argument because you don't have one. All you have done is repeat in every post that "it's my opinion it would be good" which once again is not an argument.