Trade Hate: Which one takes more skill?

Well so you assume GGG does not know themselves what is good for their game and players, does wrong decisions on purpose and likes to annoy players with not implementing a SFL? You know best how GGG should tweak there game in order to benefit yourself.


When extracting everything that has been written from SFL proponents. This is the essence that is left. And it is rather ridiculous.



Other than that I have no idea to tell you guys. You want GGG to decide:

Alright lets split up our main game into double as many pieces again so that the feeling of dead leagues/game exponentially increases faster.
Lets give them this untweaked SFl and watch them leave quickly as they recognize that it was not made for this.
Lets fuck these new guys up and give them double as many choices to pick from which leagues they can play so that the amount of players who accidently (cause of lacking knowledge) pick the wrong one and have to restart or get screwed and leave increases.
And so on. This is what you want?

I dont think I know what should be done better than GGG. I just know what I want done, and have no problem telling them, or you, what that is. Ill still play the game either way, and love it iehter way /shrug.

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Moonyu wrote:

Who says SFL needs to be in each league? Again that is assuming a future only GGG can know about at this point. Personally I wish they would make a definitive statement that there will not be a SFL or that they are considering it. Until then, everything else is just noise.


And Perq's replies is exactly what I was trying to get you to avoid. Needlessly agitating the argument.


I do give you credit for trying to explain your side, I just am not going to agree with you. Just like I know you will never agree with me. But we can keep it civil.

Think of a company that creates sausages:
They have low-fat and normal fat sousages of all their products.
Now the idea of a new kind of sausage is being created. Ofc they create this sousage in both variants.


Now think of GGG as a company. As a company you want to do consistent decisionmaking and reproducible pathes that hold for the future:
You have SC and HC, perm and 4month versions of all leagues you release.
Now the idea of a SFL arises. Just as the sousage company, there is no single good reason, if implementing such a SFL, not to make it both SC and HC. Also giving players the option for a fresh start every 4 months is one of their main concepts. So 4 (2 instant and 2 after each 4 months) new leagues would have to created when following good decisionmaking and be ready for the future.

This is dev perspective. Try understanding it.



The argument of "noone wants 4 new leauges, a single one would be enough" can only be out of the mouth from a completely 'I got no idea about life, business and how things are getting done' guy.

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LSN wrote:

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Moonyu wrote:

Who says SFL needs to be in each league? Again that is assuming a future only GGG can know about at this point. Personally I wish they would make a definitive statement that there will not be a SFL or that they are considering it. Until then, everything else is just noise.


And Perq's replies is exactly what I was trying to get you to avoid. Needlessly agitating the argument.


I do give you credit for trying to explain your side, I just am not going to agree with you. Just like I know you will never agree with me. But we can keep it civil.

Think of a company that creates sausages:
They have low-fat and normal fat sousages of all their products.
Now the idea of a new kind of sausage is being created. Ofc they create this sousage in both variants.


Now think of GGG as a company. As a company you want to do consistent decisionmaking and reproducible pathes that hold for the future:
You have SC and HC, perm and 4month versions of all leagues you release.
Now the idea of a SFL arises. Just as the sousage company, there is no single good reason, if implementing such a SFL, not to make it both SC and HC. Also giving players the option for a fresh start every 4 months is one of their main concepts. So 4 (2 instant and 2 after each 4 months) new leagues would have to created when following good decisionmaking and be ready for the future.

This is dev perspective. Try understanding it.



The argument of "noone wants 4 new leauges, a single one would be enough" can only be out of the mouth from an underaged, without any experience in life, no idea at all about business/decision making kind of guy. I am sorry to say this, but this is a dry analysis.

They can solve this issue by simply making it an option on character creation. Tick 'sfl' and it only gives you access to your stash from SFL characters on that league/doesnt let you trade at all.

No more need for 4 new leagues..

Yes this is what I support instead of a SFL. But plz stop calling this SFL because it isn't. This would be beneficial for PoE to have. Seperate SFLs instead for sure would not (out of dev perspective and not out of the player 'I like, I want to have this and that' perspective).

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LSN wrote:

Yes this is what I support instead of a SFL. But plz stop calling this SFL because it isn't. This would be beneficial for PoE to have. Seperate SFLs instead for sure would not (out of dev perspective and not out of the player 'I like, I want to have this and that' perspective).

/Shrug, fair enough. Self found CHARACTERS with their own ladder on the website would work great for me.

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LSN wrote:

there is no single good reason

There's really just as much reason for a base SFL (no tweaks) as there is for hardcore. Some people want it and some people don't.

I see no good reason for hardcore because I don't care one iota about it. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist for other people.

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LSN wrote:

No.

You don't understand what kept D2 alive that long. It was not grinding baal endlessly for sure. But it was interaction abilities amongst players and incredible rare stuff that could drop.

Interaction may have kept the game alive for you and others like you. Interaction was optional however. And the game was alive for many other groups that didn't affect you. You didn't even notice them. Let's make a list:

Closed Battle.net
Open Battle.net
Offline Single Player (<- I was here)
Modding Scene

And then there's the selection of either Hardcore or Softcore; Classic or Expansion for every of those groups creating subgroups in each one of them. But in Path of Exile it's too much?

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LSN wrote:

Splitting of players on the different leagues is one of PoEs bigger problems and makes league feel dead/empty and triggers ppl to leave.

It is not one of Path of Exiles Problems to "split" players. What are we to GGG, one homogenous mass that is "the players"? We aren't the Borg, we play differently, only a minority uses chat, and not everyone trades. Players have individual playstyles and an individual incentive for social interaction within a game. We don't all want social interaction in PoE.

Players were split in D2 as well, much more so than here. Did that affect us back then?

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LSN wrote:

Increasing the number of simultaniously running leagues will also create more confusion amongst new players. If my friend likes to play SFL and I like to play with trading we both not wont be able to play together if a SFL existed. It is one of the core concepts to keep things as transparent and easy as possible. As PoE has alot of difficulties that makes players quit fast. Adding more is unreasonable.

And if your friend does not like to play while trading and there is no option that's better how? He might not even try, or quit after people tell him "to go play D3"

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LSN wrote:

When a new player joins poe and decides for a league, plays char up to 80 and then finds out he opted for the wrong league for what he wanted to do (lack of information didnt allow him to make correct choice in the beginning) he potentially leaves the game.

Yes, and this sucks. But that's a real problem now already, even without optional leagues we don't have yet. After a temp. league ends, all it's characters are being dumped into Standard. SFL or not, but this is a problem.

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LSN wrote:

When a SFL is running for 3-4 months (probably even way earlier) ppl will find it to have the same problems. As SFL didnt resolve their thing they lose hope and potentially leave the game (just like all the D3 SFL heroes who like it that much this way but dont play the game anymore for reasons they neither know or want to admit, they just like the feeling of noone else is able to do better than them with efforts but just by pure rng). As GGG invested developing time on SFL instead of addressing the actual issues, all players will be affected and lose hope for things to get better as focus was put on wrong issues. Playing in a SFL will create exactly the same issues that ppl in D3 have: Finding a soul taker 3 times while finding zero kaoms and your friend finds 3 kaoms but no soul taker is creating this useless feeling of "why am I not able to give him one of my soul takers in return of a kaoms".

Running a SFL for 4 Months would be completely pointless. It takes FAR longer to complete a character selffound than in the temporary leagues. If SFL, then permanent is the only reasonable option. In fact, having every league be permanent would be better than what we have now. Why do we need to shut down leagues and merge it all in standard and HC every 4 month?

I won't even answer the D3 BS here because i've done so above in the same thread several times. Maybe on the same page.

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LSN wrote:

And I could go on with these little things probably for pages that in the end will cause player loss while actual issues are not being addressed just for the sake of having a SFL.
The whole issue about getting a SFL is made up. There is none. It is just that ppl do not understand and think through stuff to the end.

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Of course there is no need for a selffound league. Just like there is no need for difficulty selections in Tetris. It's just nice to have options to play around with and have the game suit more than one playstyle if it isn't a problem for the developer to add those options (Would it be difficult to add a Self found league? I don't know).

As far as "issues not being adressed" goes.. issues aren't being adressed. Because GGG pushes for more and more and more content instead.

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iamstryker wrote:

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LSN wrote:

there is no single good reason

There's really just as much reason for a base SFL (no tweaks) as there is for hardcore. Some people want it and some people don't.

I see no good reason for hardcore because I don't care one iota about it. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist for other people.

Same thing for softcore I guess