Vaal Gems - Half-Assed Design

I think they'd be much more useful if they didn't lose their charge when moving to the next area. Changing areas is just a technical crutch (because the game cannot hold the full act in memory at once), so there is no sensible reason for any changes in souls/auras/whatever between areas.

Using TP to town or waypoints can continue to reset the charges to 0 to avoid people charging these gems in easy areas.
As it is, I hardly ever get to use Vaal skills because of the reset-souls-when-changing-areas effect. And that means they're mostly not worth a socket. A pity, because there are some pretty cool skills there...

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

Nurvus wrote:

There should be MANY more ways to build Souls without requiring Uniques:
1 - Per Kill - more from harder enemies (bosses, etc)
2 - On Attack (not On Hit) - modified by base spell/weapon speed (faster = less), but scaling with attack speed modifiers
3 - On Crit - self-descriptive, but same scaling/restrictions as On Attack
4 - Per X% of enemy Health dealt as damage - requires less % from harder enemies (bosses, etc)
5 - Per X% of Health lost
6 - On Stun - self-descriptive

#1, #3, and something similar to #6 — specifically, when you receive a Critical Strike — could all be done with a single new item: a flask which gives you Souls when consumed. Such an item would also allow the use of Vaal skills earlier in an instance than is currently possible.

The gameplay of a Flask is completely different from what I'm suggesting - and actually broken.

Flasks fill up by killing, and through Surgeon/Avenger's mods to also gain 1 Charge on Crit Dealt/Taken.
All's fine and well, except:
a) they start Full
b) can be filled at Town
c) don't support several playstyles

You should not start a map able to unload Vaal Skills, because that would be stupid gameplay:
a) Use Flask -> Vaal Skill -> kill everything in AoE -> Fill Flask -> repeat
b) Tough Boss? Portal -> Fill Flask -> Back to Boss -> stupid
c) Do you focus on Evasion/Dodge (unlikely to take a crit)? Don't focus on Crits? You're fucked - going back to the core of the bad design behind Vaal Skills.

In my idea:
- You EARN the right to use the Vaal Skill, even during a solo boss.
- All gameplay styles are meant to be supported
- Those who want to focus on Vaal Skills can improve one or more ways to generate Souls through gear/passives/supports.
- Those who don't care about Vaal Skills can just avoid gear/passives/supports related to them.

"

Natharias wrote:

"

Nurvus wrote:

They have a great concept and are worth keeping.
It's just the way Souls are built that sucks balls - it greatly restricts the gameplay value/depth behind Vaal Skills.

...and I wonder why that is.

You don't have to wonder. I already said it's the way you generate Souls that is the whole problem.
They can easily balance Soul generation EVEN accounting for attack speed builds.

Just make max Soul 1000, and generate an amount of Soul per hit/crit inversely proportional to the weapon/spell BASE speed.

"

Natharias wrote:

Oh, I've been saying it since they came out:

Vaal skills need to act as regular skill gems while not charged, and the method to charge them most likely needs to change.

I'm trying to understand how GGG came up with this idea and thought that it would work. Players either totally love vaal gems, and usually only some of them, or players like me outright hate them all and can't find a use for them.

Although I see where you're coming from with allowing gems to be used while not charged, there are a few things we need to consider:
- If Vaal Skills are simply meant as upgrades (normal use PLUS empowered use), EVERYONE has to use them, because they're a pure upgrade.
- If Vaal Skills are simply meant as alternatives, then to allow normal use, there would need to be a considerable penalty.

And if GGG implements your suggestion WITHOUT improving the way you build Souls, Vaal Skills will STILL be retarded.

On the other hand, if GGG does what I'm suggesting, there will be less/no people hating Vaal Skills.

"

DirkAustin wrote:

"

Treffnix wrote:

I think they'd be much more useful if they didn't lose their charge when moving to the next area. Changing areas is just a technical crutch (because the game cannot hold the full act in memory at once), so there is no sensible reason for any changes in souls/auras/whatever between areas.

Using TP to town or waypoints can continue to reset the charges to 0 to avoid people charging these gems in easy areas.
As it is, I hardly ever get to use Vaal skills because of the reset-souls-when-changing-areas effect. And that means they're mostly not worth a socket. A pity, because there are some pretty cool skills there...

The problem with not losing the charges on zone change are simply the boss kill exploit it would bring to the game.

Which would still exist if ScrotieMcB's idea is implemented, but does NOT occur if mine is implemented.

Souls should STILL decay/clear when exiting an area, but we should build Souls doing our build's specialty... (crit, fast attacks, etc)
There could even be a Keystone that causes you to gain Souls per second based on the number/type of Minions you have alive.

The way it is now, Vaal Skills seem to be meant to use ONLY to kill small fries, not bosses.

"

DirkAustin wrote:

"

Treffnix wrote:

...
Using TP to town or waypoints can continue to reset the charges to 0 to avoid people charging these gems in easy areas...

The problem with not losing the charges on zone change are simply the boss kill exploit it would bring to the game.

How so?

"

Treffnix wrote:

"

DirkAustin wrote:

"

Treffnix wrote:

...
Using TP to town or waypoints can continue to reset the charges to 0 to avoid people charging these gems in easy areas...

The problem with not losing the charges on zone change are simply the boss kill exploit it would bring to the game.

How so?

Dude it doesn't matter - that's offtopic.
Letting charges carry over between areas doesn't change the fact that Vaal Skills suck BECAUSE you can only generate Souls through kills.

Just make Souls quickly decay while in town, don't reset Souls when you change zone, but let us generate Souls in ways other than killing!
That's the whole fucking problem.
---

Anyway I updated the original post with more ideas, even Keystone examples.

"

DirkAustin wrote:

You dont get it how to use them properly, thats not GGGs fault, its their fault to have introduced the to begin with. They only suck because you cant 6L faceroll the game with one of them and unleash the effect from that one gem.

So Spark isn't meant for burst damage?

Detonate Dead isn't meant for burst damage or clearing bodies?

Summon Skeletons isn't to instafill a room with low hit point minions with a general?

Discipline isn't supposed to boost your ES while causing it to recover even as you take damage?

Dafuq kind of logic is this? Oh, wait, you're just trolling right now.

I know perfectly well how to use Vaal gems, but I'm not talking about how to use them. I'm talking about how unreliable they are because most of the time you can't use them.

Without a second thought, I'd rather have a Summon Skeleton four-link than a Vaal Summon Skeletons four-link, because I can always have at least some skeletons up all the time. Yeah, sure, the VSS would be powerful and fun, but it's unreliable.

Want to clear rooms of bodies? Bone/Flesh Offering does an infintely better job than Vaal Detonate Dead, since it also offers a way to bolster minions if you use them.

"

Nurvus wrote:

- If Vaal Skills are simply meant as upgrades (normal use PLUS empowered use), EVERYONE has to use them, because they're a pure upgrade.

No, not by a long shot.

Let's say you have three options: (All vaal orbed to obtain attributes, otherwise Vaal gems would only ever be level 20 with 0% quality)
1. Use a Vaal version of the skill at 20/20 that acts as a 20/20 normal gem until you get it charged. Let's say it takes the normal amount of kills or ~200 casts to charge. Either way, you use the normal skill ~99% of the time.
2. Use a regular 21/20 version. This never procs as a vaal gem but has one more level. This means a higher average of damage overall, and more overall targets hit for skills like Arc. This would be the preference for Arc due to the level.
3. 20/23 regular gem. Higher quality is sometimes better than a vaal version or another level. Things like Shock Nova will be used in this way for shocking, since you get 1.5% chance to shock per 1% quality.

I fail to see why you think everyone would use just vaal gems if they acted as regular versions.

"

Nurvus wrote:

- If Vaal Skills are simply meant as alternatives, then to allow normal use, there would need to be a considerable penalty.

Read above. Different gems will want different qualities offered by Vaal gems.

Another note: Quality on gems is priceless, so the amount of 20/20 vaal gems will be low. This will force players to try 21/20 and 20/23 versions of those skills, and they may prefer them.

"

Nurvus wrote:

And if GGG implements your suggestion WITHOUT improving the way you build Souls, Vaal Skills will STILL be retarded.

Again, read above.

Vaal skills won't be retarded, as players will have different options for their gems.

Either way, if Vaal skills were changed as I would like them to be and still required, say, 96 kills, you wouldn't be able to use them more than once per boss fight.

"

Natharias wrote:

"

Nurvus wrote:

- If Vaal Skills are simply meant as upgrades (normal use PLUS empowered use), EVERYONE has to use them, because they're a pure upgrade.

No, not by a long shot.

Let's say you have three options: (All vaal orbed to obtain attributes, otherwise Vaal gems would only ever be level 20 with 0% quality)
1. Use a Vaal version of the skill at 20/20 that acts as a 20/20 normal gem until you get it charged. Let's say it takes the normal amount of kills or ~200 casts to charge. Either way, you use the normal skill ~99% of the time.
2. Use a regular 21/20 version. This never procs as a vaal gem but has one more level. This means a higher average of damage overall, and more overall targets hit for skills like Arc. This would be the preference for Arc due to the level.
3. 20/23 regular gem. Higher quality is sometimes better than a vaal version or another level. Things like Shock Nova will be used in this way for shocking, since you get 1.5% chance to shock per 1% quality.

I fail to see why you think everyone would use just vaal gems if they acted as regular versions.

"

Nurvus wrote:

- If Vaal Skills are simply meant as alternatives, then to allow normal use, there would need to be a considerable penalty.

Read above. Different gems will want different qualities offered by Vaal gems.

Another note: Quality on gems is priceless, so the amount of 20/20 vaal gems will be low. This will force players to try 21/20 and 20/23 versions of those skills, and they may prefer them.

"

Nurvus wrote:

And if GGG implements your suggestion WITHOUT improving the way you build Souls, Vaal Skills will STILL be retarded.

Again, read above.

Vaal skills won't be retarded, as players will have different options for their gems.

Either way, if Vaal skills were changed as I would like them to be and still required, say, 96 kills, you wouldn't be able to use them more than once per boss fight.

Thanks for missing the whole point of what I said.
1 - When I say Vaal Skills, I don't mean Vaal Gems. Can you tell the difference?
1.1 - EITHER the Vaal SKILLS are meant as upgrades (such that you are expected to have them with you PLUS whatever else Vaal Gems can offer);
1.2 - OR the Vaal SKILLS are meant to be alternatives (such that you pick Quality vs Level vs Vaal Skill, etc)
In which case, if Vaal Skill allows normal use, its normal use needs to be INFERIOR to a 20/20 gem if it's EVER going to be balanced against non-Vaal Skill build efficiency - Possibly 20/10.
2 - Building Souls exclusively through Kills or Uniques is BAD designed on ALL fronts.

• It creates the need to make bosses have adds in order for you to use Vaal Skills versus bosses.
• It makes Vaal Skills overall pointless, because if you can kill everything WITH the Vaal Skill equipped BUT WITHOUT using it (in order to build the Souls), then why the fuck wouldn't you just keep at it and ignore the fucking Vaal Skill?
• Since you're killing at 100% efficiency to build the Vaal Skill, using a Vaal Skill or not is essentially a matter of whether your build can spare gem slots for the Vaal Skill, which leaves several builds out of the equation.

Now, I'm fine whether Vaal Skills allow normal use or not - I see valid points towards and against, but they need to be balanced accordingly.
If they DON'T allow, making a build for Vaal Skill means you'll probably only use 1-2 Vaal Skills, and you're meant to depend on it - such as slowing/kiting/building with normal skill(s) and killing with Vaal Skill. For builds that currently can't spare gem slots for "extra Vaal Skill fun", this means you fight below 100% until you unleash your Vaal Skill.
If they DO allow, then those who use Vaal Skills are likely to use a bunch of them, and either a) they are either meant to be a pure upgrade with no downsides, or b) they need some heavy penalties, considering the fact you're not wasting any Gem Slots.

But whatever is done, Vaal Skills NEED to gain additional ways to build Souls that work even against single target enemies like Bosses.
And I'm not talking about bosses with adds like Merveil - I'm talking about isolated bosses like Brutus where there's nothing to kill but the Boss.

Because having a build focused on Vaal Skills, but having bosses without adds, is like having a fire build and enemies immune to fire, or Curse Immune monsters vs a Curse specialized build. It's bad design - which I remember you aproved of, so I'm not going to bother discussing it with you.