Vaal Gems - Half-Assed Design

Imo. the soul cost is a bit too steep on higher levels, because you really start having a hard time finding enough enemies to even use the gems.

Another thing, boss minion summons do not give any souls, which is just (censored by happy thoughts), especially the likes of the final boss -hentai mode and Piety who just spam an infinite horde of mobs.

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Natharias wrote:

Spoiler

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Nurvus wrote:

I can do that too:

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Natharias wrote:

I love missing the point of a discussion, so Nurvus and Caps Lock are here to help me.

Maybe I got the purpose of the Suggestions forum completely wrong, but I made this thread to discuss ways to make Vaal Gems better - not bitching about how useless they are.

You seem to think Vaal Gems will only EVER be useful if you can use the normal skill with them as well.
I already said in another thread I'm fine either way, and that there are good reasons supporting both situations.
In the end it's all about what GGG wants Vaal Gems to be - an alternative, or an upgrade.

However, regardless of whether your suggestion is implemented, Vaal Skills will ALWAYS suck as long as you can ONLY charge them through kills.
And that is what I suggest to change.

Between Trigger gems and Vaal gems, considering their concept and their current implementation:
Trigger gems are fairly well implemented, but have a terrible concept (trivialize part of the game and are mendatory).
Vaal gems have a great concept but are terribly implemented (charge from kills only and too weak to compete with Trigger Gems/Auras for sockets).

So if I had to choose between one of them, I'd remove Trigger Gems from the game and fix Vaal Gems.

Let me know when you want to cut the bullshit. Making up quotes just shows how well you take comments, and then criticism for attacking someone who simply comments.

So I need to cut the bullshit?

I explained various issues of the current Vaal Skill design and provided multiple ways to deal with them.
I've shown that it's the Soul generation based solely on kills that prevents Vaal Gems from providing proper gameplay.

I backed my claims with logic.

Post after post you dismiss most of what I write and make blanket statements such as "Vaal skills need to act as regular skill gems while not charged" without so much as an explanation.

Totally legit criticism.

Here's something you should've given more importance to:

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Nurvus wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Nurvus wrote:

Spoiler

There should be MANY more ways to build Souls without requiring Uniques:
1 - Per Kill - more from harder enemies (bosses, etc)
2 - On Attack (not On Hit) - modified by base spell/weapon speed (faster = less), but scaling with attack speed modifiers
3 - On Crit - self-descriptive, but same scaling/restrictions as On Attack
4 - Per X% of enemy Health dealt as damage - requires less % from harder enemies (bosses, etc)
5 - Per X% of Health lost
6 - On Stun - self-descriptive

#1, #3, and something similar to #6 — specifically, when you receive a Critical Strike — could all be done with a single new item: a flask which gives you Souls when consumed. Such an item would also allow the use of Vaal skills earlier in an instance than is currently possible.

The gameplay of a Flask is completely different from what I'm suggesting - and actually broken.

Spoiler

Flasks fill up by killing, and through Surgeon/Avenger's mods to also gain 1 Charge on Crit Dealt/Taken.
All's fine and well, except:
a) they start Full
b) can be filled at Town
c) don't support several playstyles

You should not start a map able to unload Vaal Skills, because that would be stupid gameplay:
a) Use Flask -> Vaal Skill -> kill everything in AoE -> Fill Flask -> repeat
b) Tough Boss? Portal -> Fill Flask -> Back to Boss -> stupid
c) Do you focus on Evasion/Dodge (unlikely to take a crit)? Don't focus on Crits? You're fucked - going back to the core of the bad design behind Vaal Skills.

In my idea:
- You EARN the right to use the Vaal Skill, even during a solo boss.
- All gameplay styles are meant to be supported
- Those who want to focus on Vaal Skills can improve one or more ways to generate Souls through gear/passives/supports.
- Those who don't care about Vaal Skills can just avoid gear/passives/supports related to them.

There is a difference between breakable and broken. The difference depends on numbers.

• Never said that a full "soul flask" would give you enough to cast a Vaal skill immediately from zero. I'm just saying you'd get more souls. (Multiple soul flasks might allow you to do this, but that requires additional commitment.)
• Never set the ratio between flask charges and souls, so you can't say you'd kill everything within an AoE and immediately have enough souls to repeat the Vaal skill. (Again, might be possible with multiple soul flasks; again, requires extra commitment.)

To answer the questions you didn't feel the need to ask before jumping to conclusions: I was thinking something like 2 souls gained per use, 10 charges consumed per use, maximum capacity 30 (40-50 with Ample prefix, but that means no Surgeon's). Vaal Spectral Throw costs 16 souls per use in Merciless.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

There is a difference between breakable and broken. The difference depends on numbers.

• Never said that a full "soul flask" would give you enough to cast a Vaal skill immediately from zero. I'm just saying you'd get more souls. (Multiple soul flasks might allow you to do this, but that requires additional commitment.)
• Never set the ratio between flask charges and souls, so you can't say you'd kill everything within an AoE and immediately have enough souls to repeat the Vaal skill. (Again, might be possible with multiple soul flasks; again, requires extra commitment.)

To answer the questions you didn't feel the need to ask before jumping to conclusions: I was thinking something like 2 souls gained per use, 10 charges consumed per use, maximum capacity 30 (40-50 with Ample prefix, but that means no Surgeon's). Vaal Spectral Throw costs 16 souls per use in Merciless.

Fair enough, but although the whole basis for your idea is using what we already have in the game, and that's a good philosophy to facilitate things for the devs, it doesn't address some of the fundamental issues with Soul generation.
Furthermore, I didn't just extrapolate exaggerated assumptions.

1 - your idea only supports:
- crit builds (crit builds are naturally more squishy so it's fair)
- tank builds (being critted by the enemy doesn't always end well)
- kills
2 - (due to 1) most builds get to a boss and can't build Souls.
3 - most builds must be able to kill everything (relatively efficiently) without Vaal Skills in order to gain Souls to... kill what's left?
4 - I'm completely against being able to abuse portals to fill flasks, and if it fuels our offense it's even worse! Even if you need 5 Soul Flasks to fill a Vaal Skill!
That sort of gameplay should be abolished, not further encouraged.

Essentially, not only does your Soul Flask idea merely easen/speed up a broken process by sacrificing (a) Flask slot(s), it also introduces the abusable Flask mechanics to Vaal Skill usage.

In my idea, GGG just needs to determine accessible basic means to obtain Souls.
By default it should simply be attacking/being attacked based on the damage you would deal/take (even if a dodge, block or evade occurs), unless the attack doesn't even "connect" (like a projectile that passes beside you or a melee attack that doesn't reach you).
Naturally, killing still gives more Souls because you deal more damage.
Then, item properties and/or passives would empower/modify this generation to accomodate to specific builds.
Even providing soul generation when your minions or totems deal/take damage, etc.

In my idea you don't need to be able to kill anything efficiently without Vaal Skills.
You just need to be able to soften stuff up - perhaps even ailments can generate souls through proper passives/item properties.

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In my idea, GGG just needs to determine accessible basic means to obtain Souls.
By default it should simply be attacking/being attacked based on the damage you would deal/take (even if a dodge, block or evade occurs), unless the attack doesn't even "connect" (like a projectile that passes beside you or a melee attack that doesn't reach you).
Naturally, killing still gives more Souls because you deal more damage.
Then, item properties and/or passives would empower/modify this generation to accomodate to specific builds.
Even providing soul generation when your minions or totems deal/take damage, etc.

In my idea you don't need to be able to kill anything efficiently without Vaal Skills.
You just need to be able to soften stuff up - perhaps even ailments can generate souls through proper passives/item properties.

Maybe the Vaal gems' soul mechanic could be just replaced with a: "Uses Bloodmagick" and/or with greatly extended cooldown period?

I mean, the soul mechanic is already in itself a cooldown system, but the thing is, that it is both a pre-cooldown and after-cooldown, which means that it can not be even used if you do not have enough "non summoned and non minion" -type killable enemies in that area, since souls "charges" do not carry over from one area to the others.

cero88,

Soul generation is nothing like a cooldown.
Or rather, at most it's a variable cooldown since it depends on how fast you kill.

Secondly, Cooldown at its core is a poor mechanic.
It enforces and restricts without adding anything meaningful:
- takes away flavor (Vaal is all about sacrifice)
- takes away the feeling that you EARN the right to use the Vaal Skill
- does not allow you to use low Soul cost Vaal Skills multiple times in a short time due to cooldown.
- greatly favors tank builds and devalues attack/cast speed, since regardless of your damage or speed, you will always have Vaal Skill available just as fast.

Lastly, Soul Generation is a great mechanic.
GGG just designed it to fill up in a poor fashion (kills only).

Give us Soul generation through damage dealt/taken and everything's fine.

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Nurvus wrote:

cero88,

Soul generation is nothing like a cooldown.
Or rather, at most it's a variable cooldown since it depends on how fast you kill.

Secondly, Cooldown at its core is a poor mechanic.
It enforces and restricts without adding anything meaningful:
- takes away flavor (Vaal is all about sacrifice)
- takes away the feeling that you EARN the right to use the Vaal Skill
- does not allow you to use low Soul cost Vaal Skills multiple times in a short time due to cooldown.
- greatly favors tank builds and devalues attack/cast speed, since regardless of your damage or speed, you will always have Vaal Skill available just as fast.

Lastly, Soul Generation is a great mechanic.
GGG just designed it to fill up in a poor fashion (kills only).

Give us Soul generation through damage dealt/taken and everything's fine.

Just as well. The current mechanic is lacking a bit, and your version would be pretty good. I would still like if the "soul generation" would apply to boss' minions, though I suppose it would, if it was purely damage based.

I don't consider the current method of soul generation broken. I don't believe you're supposed to be able to use most Vaal skills against a boss more than one time, or that you're supposed to be able to build souls mid-fight; I view Vaal skills as one-ofs which you probably should save until a boss fight, but certain be able to repeat multiple times.

The only thing which I feel is slightly wrong with the current soul mechanic is that you can't really build into it. There's no way to "spec" for Vaal skills. Flasks would be a method for doing this which doesn't utterly neuter your character in terms of their prowess with non-Vaal skills.

The reason I picked flasks is because I believe the current method of soul generation is not fundamentally broken, and furthermore, that it's important to keep Vaal skills bound to kills (because flask charges are, for the most part, kills) in order to prevent Vaal skills from being used in a manner which would make them spammable. They should not be spammable.

In short, for the most part, I rather emphatically disagree with you, Nurvus. However, I would like to hope the flask thing is one area where we can find a little patch of common ground.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I don't consider the current method of soul generation broken. I don't believe you're supposed to be able to use most Vaal skills against a boss more than one time, or that you're supposed to be able to build souls mid-fight; I view Vaal skills as one-ofs which you probably should save until a boss fight, but certain be able to repeat multiple times.

The only thing which I feel is slightly wrong with the current soul mechanic is that you can't really build into it. There's no way to "spec" for Vaal skills. Flasks would be a method for doing this which doesn't utterly neuter your character in terms of their prowess with non-Vaal skills.

The reason I picked flasks is because I believe the current method of soul generation is not fundamentally broken, and furthermore, that it's important to keep Vaal skills bound to kills (because flask charges are, for the most part, kills) in order to prevent Vaal skills from being used in a manner which would make them spammable. They should not be spammable.

In short, for the most part, I rather emphatically disagree with you, Nurvus. However, I would like to hope the flask thing is one area where we can find a little patch of common ground.

The irony is that your idea with Soul Flasks actually contradicts your "goals" above.

Sopecially when you say that

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I don't believe you're supposed to be able to use most Vaal skills against a boss more than one time, or that you're supposed to be able to build souls mid-fight; I view Vaal skills as one-ofs which you probably should save until a boss fight,

...

1 - Your Soul Flask idea DOES allow them to be spammable - by a) serving as an extra Soul pool, b) you can refill Flasks in town, and c) Flasks start filled.
This actually increases your burst potential which may end fights before they begin, specially because by killing enemies you're filling Souls directly from the KILLS & indirectly from the Flasks that also fill from the Kills - essentially having increased Soul generation - potentially creating an Infinite Loop.

MY suggestion, on the other hand, does NOT allow that, because a) the max Souls you can have at a time does not change, b) you must charge your Vaal Skill to use it the first time, and every time afterwards, creating a pseudo-cooldown and c) you don't have increased soul generation. If killing a monster yields 2 souls, dealing 100% of its health in damage would also yield 2 souls. So the amount doesn't change, just how you get it.
So I'm actually suggesting the opposite of spamming...

2 - Your Soul Flasks DO allow you to build souls mid-fight through Surgeon and Avenger mods, which simply makes it unfair to most builds, which is one of the main issues I'm trying to solve.

3 - Furthermore, when you say Vaal Skills can't be built into right now, using Flask gives you a lot less customization in that regard, comparing to item properties and passives.
Because while using Flasks for Souls sacrifices survival - automatically excluding multiple builds from using Soul Flasks at all - using passives or item properties for Vaal Skills allows you to make sacrifice your own combo of survival and/or offense.

Finally, I don't understand why you believe that Vaal Skills are best as one-offs - because:
- most builds simply ignore them because of that
- they're mostly eye candy and totally unnecessary since you're expected to kill everything without them anyway
- if for some reason you fill all your Vaal Skills by clearing an area, and then enter the boss area, and the boss forces you to portal, when you get back you got 0 Souls and 0 enemies to kill.
- some bosses (like Brutus) have no minions, have a loading screen to get to them, and in short you cannot use a single Vaal Skill on them.

Your Flask idea does NOT solve this because a) either the Flasks are "undertuned" so that you need 3+ of them to charge a single use of most Vaal Skills, or b) you can get multiple Vaal Skill uses out of 5 Soul Flasks which kind of makes most of your statements above a joke.

So yeah, Soul Generation is currently broken, and Flasks just sugar coat it.
I think this is one of the few ideas you didn't quite think through.

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Nurvus wrote:

- if for some reason you fill all your Vaal Skills by clearing an area, and then enter the boss area, and the boss forces you to portal, when you get back you got 0 Souls and 0 enemies to kill.

Lies. As in, right now, in the current version of PoE, if you portal (or waypoint), you have exactly the same number of souls when you return to the instance as you had when you departed. It only resets if you create a new instance.

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Nurvus wrote:

- some bosses (like Brutus) have no minions, have a loading screen to get to them, and in short you cannot use a single Vaal Skill on them.

Lies. Brutus does not have a loading screen, his room is part of the Upper Prison and you'll have any souls from monsters killed in the Upper Prison.

Have you actually played with Vaal skills at all, or have you simply written them off while doing armchair theorycrafting? The lies seem to indicate to me that you don't actually know what you're talking about. They're not entirely useless "eye candy" as you claim, even now. I just think it would be cool if there was a way to use them more often. Like I said earlier, they are not fundamentally broken.