Vaal Gems - Half-Assed Design

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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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Nurvus wrote:
- if for some reason you fill all your Vaal Skills by clearing an area, and then enter the boss area, and the boss forces you to portal, when you get back you got 0 Souls and 0 enemies to kill.
Lies. As in, right now, in the current version of PoE, if you portal (or waypoint), you have exactly the same number of souls when you return to the instance as you had when you departed. It only resets if you create a new instance.

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Nurvus wrote:
- some bosses (like Brutus) have no minions, have a loading screen to get to them, and in short you cannot use a single Vaal Skill on them.
Lies. Brutus does not have a loading screen, his room is part of the Upper Prison and you'll have any souls from monsters killed in the Upper Prison.

Have you actually played with Vaal skills at all, or have you simply written them off while doing armchair theorycrafting? The lies seem to indicate to me that you don't actually know what you're talking about. They're not entirely useless "eye candy" as you claim, even now. I just think it would be cool if there was a way to use them more often. Like I said earlier, they are not fundamentally broken.

I'm glad you found something in my wall of text that totally invalidates everything else I said *eyeroll*

I admit I haven't played recently.

Yet, although I say that the whole design around vaal skills at the moment is poor because of the way you generate Souls, its consequences go deep.

It's not that Vaal Skills are useless per se, but since you're expected to kill stuff without them, they're not an actual choice, and more of a "fun bonus".
Using them or not is pretty much all about whether you can spare the sockets.

Vaal Skills can be much more and as it stands with all the trigger gems & skill-intensive builds, Vaal Skills are far behind at the bottom of priorities in socket usage.

I want Vaal Skills to be powerful and require you to "earn" uses through combat, and not something you just spam all the time.
Still, as it stands now, it's just this bonus button you press after you cleared an area, and depending on the mob density, you may or may not be able to use them properly.
It's dull and broken.
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Last edited by Nurvus#6072 on Jul 17, 2014, 10:01:22 AM
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Nurvus wrote:
It's not that Vaal Skills are useless per se, but since you're expected to kill stuff without them, they're not an actual choice, and more of a "fun bonus".
This is roughly equivalent to saying that any skill you use except for your first is not an actual choice, since you're expected to kill stuff with the first skill alone. I'm sorry, but not every character is a one-dimensional single-skill-spambot.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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Nurvus wrote:
It's not that Vaal Skills are useless per se, but since you're expected to kill stuff without them, they're not an actual choice, and more of a "fun bonus".
This is roughly equivalent to saying that any skill you use except for your first is not an actual choice, since you're expected to kill stuff with the first skill alone. I'm sorry, but not every character is a one-dimensional single-skill-spambot.


Ironically, nearly all characters are one-dimentional single-skill-spambots.
You just need to dinstinguish "technically" from "practically".

You are expected to be able to kill everything without using the Vaal Skill.
The Vaal Skill isn't "essential". It's not part of a combo. It's just an extra.

If I had to describe a similarity between an existing "combo" and what I'm suggesting for Vaal Skills, I would say it's almost like building Frenzy Charges with Frenzy, and then unloading Flicker Strike.
It forms sort of a combo where Frenzy builds, and Flicker Strike unloads.
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Last edited by Nurvus#6072 on Jul 18, 2014, 12:44:07 AM
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Nurvus wrote:
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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Nurvus wrote:
It's not that Vaal Skills are useless per se, but since you're expected to kill stuff without them, they're not an actual choice, and more of a "fun bonus".
This is roughly equivalent to saying that any skill you use except for your first is not an actual choice, since you're expected to kill stuff with the first skill alone. I'm sorry, but not every character is a one-dimensional single-skill-spambot.
Ironically, nearly all characters are one-dimentional single-skill-spambots.
You just need to dinstinguish "technically" from "practically".
I've built several characters and the none of them ever quite lowered itself to single-skill spambot. The least complicated of them used Incinerate (main spam), Lightning Warp (movement, kind of doesn't count), and a hardcast Devouring Totem (which worked far better than automating it, and was the only thing keeping the character from being single-skill-spam, but it was a genuine improvement to do it that way). So it was almost a single-skill spammer, admittedly, but the totem was the exception.

In sharp contrast, consider Charan's and MonopolyLegend's Elemental Grenadiers, where having a diversity of different offensive options is key, to include the use of a Vaal skill. Notice how one skill is a chill AoE, one skill causes lots of burning ground, one skill is a single-target, etc. It makes a rather glass-cannon type of setup work by having multiple different offensive options and by layering these different options as needed.

It's very clear to me that the bulk of your problem with Vaal skills comes from a vision of the game as exclusively a single-skill-spam affair. If so, that's not entirely a problem, because there are builds out there which are amazingly straightforward like that. However, just because a particular skill doesn't fit your playstyle doesn't mean you have the right to call it half-assed. Some people are not single-skill-spammers, or don't have to be all of the time in order to enjoy themselves. The purpose of Vaal gems, in part, is to further satisfy that group, as well as encourage more players to attempt a less single-skill playstyle.

So please stop embracing the fallacy that which is normal for you is normal for everyone. Are "nearly all" character single-skill spambots? Well, there sure are a lot of them out there, I'll grant you that. But that does not make it the standard of judgment, nor any type of dogma to mindlessly adhere to!
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Jul 18, 2014, 12:59:50 AM
You´ve got no ability or mechanic to alter soul charges gained or alter the amount of charges you can get. That´s why in my eyes vaal gems are a half assed design.
What can never be lent or earned?
Somewhat, that devours everyone and everything:
A tree that rush. A bird that sings. It eat bones and smite the hardest stones.
Masticate every sword. Shatters every shrine. It defeat mighty kings and carry mountains on lightly wings.
What am i?
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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It's very clear to me that the bulk of your problem with Vaal skills comes from a vision of the game as exclusively a single-skill-spam affair. If so, that's not entirely a problem, because there are builds out there which are amazingly straightforward like that. However, just because a particular skill doesn't fit your playstyle doesn't mean you have the right to call it half-assed. Some people are not single-skill-spammers, or don't have to be all of the time in order to enjoy themselves. The purpose of Vaal gems, in part, is to further satisfy that group, as well as encourage more players to attempt a less single-skill playstyle.

So please stop embracing the fallacy that which is normal for you is normal for everyone. Are "nearly all" character single-skill spambots? Well, there sure are a lot of them out there, I'll grant you that. But that does not make it the standard of judgment, nor any type of dogma to mindlessly adhere to!


Oh, man... are we talking properly or beating around the bush?

When you have Lightning Warp, Devouring Totem and Incinerate, you're only using one skill to get the kill: Incinerate. Devouring Totem doesn't count.
If I have a hard cast Bloodrage plus Flicker Strike plus Whirling Blades, it's still Flicker Strike spam!

As for that Elemental Grenadier, it doesn't matter if you use 100 different skills.
If that Elemental Grenadier uses those skills in an EITHER/OR fashion, you're still only spamming one skill for any given situation.
You're only NOT spamming a single skill when you are using multiple skills to achieve the same kill.

So if that Elemental Grenadier alternates two skills (for Elemental Equilibrium, for example), then it's not a single-skill spambot.
If someone uses Frenzy to build charges and Flicker Strike to unleash them, it's not a single-skill spambot - although Bloodrage and certain Uniques kind of make it unnecessary.

If you wanted to properly nitpick at what I'm saying, you should've brought Summoners, Trappers or Ancestral Bond up. Those are more likely to use multiple damage (or minion) skills agaisnt a single opponent.

Yet it still doesn't change the fact that most builds in the game just spam a single skill to kill.
And all of that is sidetracking from the core discussion of this thread, which is how Soul generation STRICTLY from kills IS broken.

And that's where your claim that I'm implying that "normal to me is normal to everyone" comes back to bite you in the ass.
Your solution keeps the game as it is and just makes acquiring souls faster and increases the amount of Vaal Skill use you can accumulate - as long as you can spare the Flasks.
Oh, and also allows you to abuse town portals to indirectly refill "Souls".

You imply that "normal to you is normal to everyone" when you start talking about what Vaal Skills are meant to be, and one way or another refuse or ignore my concerns that the current Vaal Skill design - essentially used as clean-up skills - has an extremely limited appeal and gimmick gameplay.

On the other hand, with my suggestion EVERYONE can STILL use Vaal Skills exactly the way they do now.
But they can also use Vaal Skills in a more "combo" fashion where the Vaal Skills are PART of a combination used to ACHIEVE the kills - instead of merely "clean up" or "bonus" skills.
That is called customization, and appealing to various playstyles - without ruining anyone's.
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Last edited by Nurvus#6072 on Jul 18, 2014, 8:06:40 AM
vaal gems are FINE

normal game situation: you kill the mobs, you get your vaal gem ready, you use it when necessary.

vaal gem build: more of the same vaal gem so you can use it more often.

i don't see half-assed design, they are like "ulti" in dota, them are meant to be played only few times per istance because if properly linked they become "OP" to save your butt or kill the enemy.

and just saying, [Vaal Molten Shell + Increased Duration + RAoE + LL] is my favourite, map bosses really hate it.

edit:

about the flask of souls, it should be not refilled when in town but just when gainin a soul. so that you can gain enough souls to fire the Vaal Skill, than drink the potion and fire it again; this flask should be a rare unique.
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Last edited by jeonitsoc#7346 on Jul 18, 2014, 8:35:58 AM
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jeonitsoc wrote:
normal game situation: you kill the mobs, you get your vaal gem ready, you use it when necessary.

vaal gem build: more of the same vaal gem so you can use it more often.

My suggestion does NOT change how OFTEN you can use Vaal Skills.
It only changes HOW you obtain Souls.

Flask of Souls actually increases how often you can use Vaal Skills.

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jeonitsoc wrote:
i don't see half-assed design, they are like "ulti" in dota, them are meant to be played only few times per istance because if properly linked they become "OP" to save your butt or kill the enemy.

So you know how EVERYONE is supposed to play? Good for you.
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Last edited by Nurvus#6072 on Jul 18, 2014, 6:01:43 PM
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Nurvus wrote:

So you know how EVERYONE is supposed to play? Good for you.


im just saying that you can use vaal skills to kill or to protect yourself, if out there exist other ways to use it, let me know!

but belive me, what you ask ain't doable without a revolution inside the game; i don't expect to see it.
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