Just come on out and admit it Scrotie. You don't want to see other players enjoying themselves playing the game the way they would like to enjoy playing it.
It's not so much me not wanting you to enjoy the game, as much as it is a firm conviction that what you are asking for will not bring that enjoyment. You are patients, not doctors; your opinion on symptoms is valid, but your opinion on how to treat those symptoms is not.
And who made you the doctor if I may ask?
No one. Completely self-appointed. Utterly devoid of legitimate authority.
This doesn't invalidate my prognosis.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Unfortunately, you can't use logic to persuade GGG to make a new Self-Found League. GGG seams to be completely happy ignoring the million+ arpg players that would come here to play (or return having already quit) just because "it is not the way we like to play an arpg". So no amount of talk of a larger player base = more microtransactions is going to move GGG to make an SFL. They want to be a niche arpg for hardcore only and they will take that path all the way to the end even if that means they are out of business next year as a result of their narrow focus. Some call it being true to their inner arpg gaming core belief and others would call it foolish to ignore a huge revenue stream of self found solo players. But what the hey, it's their product and they can take it in whatever direction they desire, even if that means GGG doesn't open up PoE to a large arpg audience. Only Chris and company can can decide if "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and make a SFL.
The only part of this argument I disagree with is referring to yourselves as "self-found solo players." By your own admission, a lot of this crowd has quit and doesn't play anymore. As someone who actually plays the game, mostly sells items in trade, rarely ever buys, and usually only spends about 10 Chaos on items to get a character to endgame maps, I feel I have more of a right to the solo self-found title than they do. After all, I play solo, and I farm loot. They don't, because they don't play.
I really wish the SFL movement as a whole would grow some balls, take some pride in their true identity, and simply admit that they are challenge-averse, softcore, casual. Because they are. You can play solo self-found in the game as it is. It is definitely not impossible. It is, however, difficult. As a movement, you're not rebelling against an impossibility, you're rebelling against difficulty.
And you greatly exaggerate the benefits of trade — it's a benefit, sure, but it's not some magic cure-all which makes everything infinitely easy. If trading was really that easy, really that productive, you guys would be doing it yourselves. The reason you don't, the reason you're able to hate it and not forced to love it, is that it's really not all that its cracked up to be.
If one is honest and simply calls SFL supporters what they are — casual-gamer advocates (which, by the way, isn't the same as casual gamers; you can be a casual-gamer advocate and still be a hardcore player) — then, actually, the entire rest of your argument holds up. If GGG caters exclusively to the "hardcore" crowd and mentality, and completely ignores the casual crowd and mentality, then yes, there are potential consequences to that choice. On of the possible (but, in my opinion, otherwise avoidable) consequences is game death due to a constantly shrinking playerbase. It's a real problem, and I don't think you're wrong in the slightest to bring it up.
I'm not the sort to crusade against "dumbing it down for the filthy casuals," because I believe such a phrase is wrong on two counts: first, it's not necessarily dumbing down to find ways to appeal to them (and, in fact, the best designs to appeal to that playerbase are not dumbed-down at all, but instead very sophisticated); second, casuals aren't filthy, they're just a demographic with different tastes than the more hardcore players. I'm not against casuals trying to stand up for what they believe in and advocating changes which would make that demographic enjoy the game more thoroughly.
I am, however, against dumbing down. Which is why I don't want to see a SFL; I believe it's a crude solution when a more sophisticated, global solution would be more appropriate. Not that I think self-found is particularly broken from my perspective; from my perspective, it isn't. This doesn't mean my perspective is the only one which matters.
While you can have really great posts, this one doesn't qualify at all. You've completely missed it with that one.
@ pearodsp.
Can you stop trolling already?is beyond annoying.
@arrowneus.you too.you at least try to explain why you feel sfl is the only way.
If we take the forums seriously then the game died in cb.Which is not true as you can see.
Now,sfl does exist.Game can be completed in blue gear.What your illussion of an sfl,is the huge amount of things dropping.Even then you will cry that most uniques e.g are crap.
Do you play races?When you play in leagues,do you have the trade window open?if yes,then why all this hypocritic behaviour that sfl would 'fix' the problems game currently has,when its apparent the problem is you
Exact same post as Scrotie posted right before, just worded terribly and being heavily hypocritical at it as well. At least Scrotie is capable of writing his posts properly.
Nothing to discuss here. Still waiting for a sensible argument.
Life is tough... but it is tougher if you're stupid.
I really wish the SFL movement as a whole would grow some balls, take some pride in their true identity, and simply admit that they are challenge-averse, softcore, casual. Because they are. You can play solo self-found in the game as it is. It is definitely not impossible. It is, however, difficult. As a movement, you're not rebelling against an impossibility, you're rebelling against difficulty.
You, as many others who struggle so much to find arguments against the SFL, completely miss the point. There is no doubt you can play solo self-found and just breeze through the content. Just keep farming act-bosses and eventually you will get all you need: Gear for your char and orbs for maps (via the recipes). And if you run out of orbs for your maps (or maps), just farm actbosses again, rinse, repeat.
The problem - and I seriously don't understand why you and so many are so eager not to see it - is not that this is too "challenging", the problem is that it is too tedious. The problem is the RMT, the flippers and the scumbags that come along with unlimited trade. The problem is the dependency on trade if you want to have a non-tedious experience.
There is seriously nothing "casual" about it. Why is that so hard to understand?
Unfortunately, you can't use logic to persuade GGG to make a new Self-Found League. GGG seams to be completely happy ignoring the million+ arpg players that would come here to play (or return having already quit) just because "it is not the way we like to play an arpg". So no amount of talk of a larger player base = more microtransactions is going to move GGG to make an SFL. They want to be a niche arpg for hardcore only and they will take that path all the way to the end even if that means they are out of business next year as a result of their narrow focus. Some call it being true to their inner arpg gaming core belief and others would call it foolish to ignore a huge revenue stream of self found solo players. But what the hey, it's their product and they can take it in whatever direction they desire, even if that means GGG doesn't open up PoE to a large arpg audience. Only Chris and company can can decide if "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and make a SFL.
The only part of this argument I disagree with is referring to yourselves as "self-found solo players." By your own admission, a lot of this crowd has quit and doesn't play anymore. As someone who actually plays the game, mostly sells items in trade, rarely ever buys, and usually only spends about 10 Chaos on items to get a character to endgame maps, I feel I have more of a right to the solo self-found title than they do. After all, I play solo, and I farm loot. They don't, because they don't play.
I really wish the SFL movement as a whole would grow some balls, take some pride in their true identity, and simply admit that they are challenge-averse, softcore, casual. Because they are. You can play solo self-found in the game as it is. It is definitely not impossible. It is, however, difficult. As a movement, you're not rebelling against an impossibility, you're rebelling against difficulty.
And you greatly exaggerate the benefits of trade —
Stopped reading right here. You lost all credibility. To even suggest that trading isn't really beneficial in this game is just... wow. Just wow.
Anyways - the rest of your post is completely off and I can boil it down for you: "I don't want you to enjoy yourself in this game."
Just come on out and admit it Scrotie. You don't want to see other players enjoying themselves playing the game the way they would like to enjoy playing it. Not a single thing you said held any type of value at all... nothing logical. Just emotion.
Again: come on out - man up - and just admit that you simply just don't want other people enjoying themselves.
Misery loves company.
Tell us non SFL lovers again how it affects you when others trade? Its like if youre racist and work with someone you are racist towards. Would you quit?
You, as many others who struggle so much to find arguments against the SFL, completely miss the point. There is no doubt you can play solo self-found and just breeze through the content. Just keep farming act-bosses and eventually you will get all you need: Gear for your char and orbs for maps (via the recipes). And if you run out of orbs for your maps (or maps), just farm actbosses again, rinse, repeat.
The problem - and I seriously don't understand why you and so many are so eager not to see it - is not that this is too "challenging", the problem is that it is too tedious. The problem is the RMT, the flippers and the scumbags that come along with unlimited trade. The problem is the dependency on trade if you want to have a non-tedious experience.
There is seriously nothing "casual" about it. Why is that so hard to understand?
Scrotie is a funny one, he makes a lot of good points against SFL, ones I share. In a nutshell - changes should be made to the current leagues rather than create another.
But then he always goes full derp, generalises, stereotypes, borderline insults and outright fantasises.
I mean, if I were to re-install the client now, I could liquidate my stash into 1000 ex, I could end game map at least 3 characters to 100 in little time and I could playground of the rich craft. I could access uber Atziri, I could XYZ some upgrades and I could do this without any skill or knowledge of trade. Granted, I could do a lot better WITH some trade skill.*
Or, I could re-install the client now and swat flies for a few hours before attempting to roll a high map (if I even have any high maps, I think I have a 72 edit yup I cap out at 72). Get lucky or not, but inevitably be back swatting flies to either roll a lower map or higher if I was lucky.
* and I could have done this 6 months ago, I could have done it 9 months ago.
Casually casual.
Last edited by TheAnuhart on Apr 27, 2014, 4:43:52 PM
Just come on out and admit it Scrotie. You don't want to see other players enjoying themselves playing the game the way they would like to enjoy playing it.
It's not so much me not wanting you to enjoy the game, as much as it is a firm conviction that what you are asking for will not bring that enjoyment. You are patients, not doctors; your opinion on symptoms is valid, but your opinion on how to treat those symptoms is not.
That said, I do enjoy the game as it is. Desync bothers me more than everything else combined.
I would word it slightly differently Isbox. I think that Scrotie just doesn't want people enjoying the game through changes that he personally isn't satisfied with. If GGG makes some changes that are Scrotie approved then he wouldn't mind your enjoyment at all.
Your wording up there Scrotie makes sense based on all of the posts that I have seen from
you. My first question would be what makes you a "doctor" and no one else in the forums? How come you get to dictate to everyone else what the best decisions for the game should be? If you get to spout your opinion and believe that it should carry weight then why can't anyone else?
If your just a patient like the rest of us then your opinion that a SFL wouldn't fix anything is just another line that doesn't carry any weight. However I don't agree with your analogy. Game developers have much more reason to not only listen to the problems of the game but how they can be potentially fixed as opposed to a doctor taking the advice of a patient. A gamer is going to have more of an idea of what they find to be fun as opposed to a patient knowing how to treat a disease. I think more people are having fun with the game now as opposed to when loot was FFA, good thing people asked for what they wanted.
At any rate if the devs have some grand plans to fix the issues with the game as brought to them by the player base (SFL proponents or not), then they should share those plans and maybe that would get some of the proponents to relax about the whole thing. They have been getting the same kind of feedback for months and months, surely they have an idea of what they are going to do if anything. I have very little faith that they will do anything substantial over the next few years which is why I support the SFL which I think they could implement much faster and then they wouldn't need to make any big changes to the overall game that they might not want to do because they want to preserve the economy.
There is no doubt you can play solo self-found and just breeze through the content. Just keep farming act-bosses and eventually you will get all you need: Gear for your char and orbs for maps (via the recipes). And if you run out of orbs for your maps (or maps), just farm actbosses again, rinse, repeat.
The problem - and I seriously don't understand why you and so many are so eager not to see it - is not that this is too "challenging", the problem is that it is too tedious. The problem is the RMT, the flippers and the scumbags that come along with unlimited trade. The problem is the dependency on trade if you want to have a non-tedious experience.
There is seriously nothing "casual" about it. Why is that so hard to understand?
There is something casual about it. Allow me to explain.
The real reason you guys are against trading is that it, too, is tedious. Setting up a shop, looking up items on xyz, all that stuff is a form of tedium. It's a very rare situation where the prospect of a new item is exciting enough to give that tedium an enjoyable feeling of anticipation; generally, only build-enabling uniques can pull it off.
So if you want to gear up, you're in for some tedium no matter how you go. You can do the whole farming Merc bosses thing, or you can trade. Tedium either way...
...unless you go all Courage Wolf on the situation. Fuck upgrading. Fuck tedium. Just stroll into that difficult content undergeared, weak, likely to die. And live anyway. Because you're badass.
That's hardcore. Continually pressing forward to avoid tedium, completely bypassing the easyfarm-or-trade dichotomy. Making level 87 that way feels like an accomplishment.
So no, I'm not pro-tedium. I don't know, and can't imagine, anyone who is. However, my response to tedium is to accept the game's difficulty and put myself in some truly challenging situations. I don't mind if my character dies, if it will alleviate some boredom. You apparently do.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Unfortunately, you can't use logic to persuade GGG to make a new Self-Found League. GGG seams to be completely happy ignoring the million+ arpg players that would come here to play (or return having already quit) just because "it is not the way we like to play an arpg". So no amount of talk of a larger player base = more microtransactions is going to move GGG to make an SFL. They want to be a niche arpg for hardcore only and they will take that path all the way to the end even if that means they are out of business next year as a result of their narrow focus. Some call it being true to their inner arpg gaming core belief and others would call it foolish to ignore a huge revenue stream of self found solo players. But what the hey, it's their product and they can take it in whatever direction they desire, even if that means GGG doesn't open up PoE to a large arpg audience. Only Chris and company can can decide if "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and make a SFL.
The only part of this argument I disagree with is referring to yourselves as "self-found solo players." By your own admission, a lot of this crowd has quit and doesn't play anymore. As someone who actually plays the game, mostly sells items in trade, rarely ever buys, and usually only spends about 10 Chaos on items to get a character to endgame maps, I feel I have more of a right to the solo self-found title than they do. After all, I play solo, and I farm loot. They don't, because they don't play.
I really wish the SFL movement as a whole would grow some balls, take some pride in their true identity, and simply admit that they are challenge-averse, softcore, casual. Because they are. You can play solo self-found in the game as it is. It is definitely not impossible. It is, however, difficult. As a movement, you're not rebelling against an impossibility, you're rebelling against difficulty.
And you greatly exaggerate the benefits of trade — it's a benefit, sure, but it's not some magic cure-all which makes everything infinitely easy. If trading was really that easy, really that productive, you guys would be doing it yourselves. The reason you don't, the reason you're able to hate it and not forced to love it, is that it's really not all that its cracked up to be.
If one is honest and simply calls SFL supporters what they are — casual-gamer advocates (which, by the way, isn't the same as casual gamers; you can be a casual-gamer advocate and still be a hardcore player) — then, actually, the entire rest of your argument holds up. If GGG caters exclusively to the "hardcore" crowd and mentality, and completely ignores the casual crowd and mentality, then yes, there are potential consequences to that choice. On of the possible (but, in my opinion, otherwise avoidable) consequences is game death due to a constantly shrinking playerbase. It's a real problem, and I don't think you're wrong in the slightest to bring it up.
I'm not the sort to crusade against "dumbing it down for the filthy casuals," because I believe such a phrase is wrong on two counts: first, it's not necessarily dumbing down to find ways to appeal to them (and, in fact, the best designs to appeal to that playerbase are not dumbed-down at all, but instead very sophisticated); second, casuals aren't filthy, they're just a demographic with different tastes than the more hardcore players. I'm not against casuals trying to stand up for what they believe in and advocating changes which would make that demographic enjoy the game more thoroughly.
I am, however, against dumbing down. Which is why I don't want to see a SFL; I believe it's a crude solution when a more sophisticated, global solution would be more appropriate. Not that I think self-found is particularly broken from my perspective; from my perspective, it isn't. This doesn't mean my perspective is the only one which matters.
You have to actually be solo self found before you can claim it's title mate.Whether someone is actually currently playing or not doesn't make the title a given or taken. =P
Trading really is a smorgasbord for item acquisition and is at odds with the traditional awesomeness of finding gear for oneself and the satisfaction of progressing under ones own steam,which is why there are some players that will not trade at all.
Your perspective is from outside solo self found and from a trade view,Standing on the outside looking in.
I really wish the SFL movement as a whole would grow some balls, take some pride in their true identity, and simply admit that they are challenge-averse, softcore, casual. Because they are. You can play solo self-found in the game as it is. It is definitely not impossible. It is, however, difficult. As a movement, you're not rebelling against an impossibility, you're rebelling against difficulty.
Is there any reason that playign solo self found should be vastly more difficult?
And you greatly exaggerate the benefits of trade — it's a benefit, sure, but it's not some magic cure-all which makes everything infinitely easy.
Eh, I think it mostly is. Without trade I wouldn't have hardly anything I have now. Flipping some legacies is a piece of cake and nets a ton of currency.
If trading was really that easy, really that productive, you guys would be doing it yourselves. The reason you don't, the reason you're able to hate it and not forced to love it, is that it's really not all that its cracked up to be.
Not true at all. I do the trade game as long as I'm not bored out of my mind while doing it. I prefer to play the actual game because I didn't install PoE to trade all day but its impossible to ignore how amazingly beneficial trading is.
