poe.xyz.is = The "auction house" that everyone thought we didn't need?

If you're going to respond, please at least skim through what I wrote in the spoiler tags.

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Hello ladies and gents. I'd like to revisit the issue of whether the general population of PoE would stand to benefit from some type of in-game marketplace or auction house. Yes, I know, saying the word "auction house" on the PoE forums is like wielding a satanic cross high in the air while running into Sunday worship. But let's see why the people @ GGG are so much against the idea of an auction house, if that auto-disdain is even logical to begin with, and what specific features of an auction house would make it viable.

I was once a hater...
People often say one thing and then end up doing another. Having been here for quite some time, I've noticed that as PoE has evolved, so have the players' tastes, especially when it comes to trading. In open beta, I was one of the people who was sorely against having any type of auction house. No auction house was actually what drew me to Path of Exile. But over the course of a year, I am now one of the presumably thousands of players who use sites like poe.xyz.is / poemarkets to trade items on a daily basis.

Why has my view changed? Well, I'll start off by stating the obvious: People want to spend more time killing monsters, and less time trading. That's what this game was designed for wasn't it? But with the current trade system, that is exactly the opposite of what we're getting. Instead, people who aren't familiar with sites like poe.xyz.is are spending hours on end sitting in town, staring at a waterfall of text (trade chat), hoping to find something they can use, and/or flooding their own items on trade chat in a futile/cumbersome attempt to clean out their stash, so that they can go back to slaughtering monsters. I can say poe.xyz.is has saved me an eternity of headaches, and I'm sure for a lot of the people I trade with too. I now spend less time trading.
The first common issue...
The first common issue people have with an auction house is that people don't want to play a "trade simulator", and how PoE is supposed to be a dungeon crawler, where you're supposed to find your own gear upgrades and forge your way through the foreboding world of Wraeclast. That's all well and good until you realize finding/crafting specific gear in PoE is borderline inefficient -- heck, nigh impossible with the current loot tables, and the randomness associated with the completely unpredictable "crafting" (i.e. no better than gambling at a roulette table). The good gear you find is often suited to another build entirely, and when you try to "craft" your own, you're very likely to go broke doing it. We've all seen thread after thread of people exhausting their entire bank trying to 6S/5L/6L/rarify something, or hitting a wall at Act 3 Cruel, because the rares they find haven't been able to serve as a single relevant gear upgrade since Normal difficulty. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. But what do these people have left to do? The answer is to find someone else who already has the item they want.

It's the same reason why, in real life, we aren't all our own plumbers, electricians, chefs, accountants, doctors, firefighters, etc. We buy shoes from a certain company, and purchase computers from another company. People specialize in different things, and as a community we transact with each other so that everyone's expertise can be shared with others. Trade/commerce is simply an inevitable result of a developed/mature community. Everyone has something different to offer.

Even if GGG increased drop rates and introduced a more focused crafting system, we've still established that trading with others is very much a natural and essential progression. People will undoubtedly find/craft valuable gear that they have no intention of ever using, in which someone else would gladly take off their hands. Do we place them in a large crowd and tell them "good luck finding each other"? Or do we develop a system where both parties can transact in a hassle-free manner? I'm betting the latter. Now the question is, how do we reduce the amount of time spent trading, so that everyone can get back to doing what really matters?

The answer is simply an in-game marketplace where items can be placed in a searchable public domain, in which potential buyers are able to filter down to exactly the type of item they need, much like how we're able to filter results on Amazon.com for the specific type of book we want to purchase (by genre, by author, etc). Not only that; when we are ready to purchase, we know exactly who to buy from.
What about D3?
People may ask... "well wasn't it the AH that killed D3?" Not exactly. The idea of an auction house is sound. But the biggest issue about D3's auction house was its poor implementation. Namely, the instant buyouts. Blizzard allowed players to sell their items at all hours of the day, 7 days a week, even if the sellers weren't online to do so. Items were held in escrow until a buyer came around to snatch the item for whatever price it was listed at, whereby the buyer would immediately receive the item, and the seller would receive his/her funds. This, ladies and gentlemen, is what killed the auction house idea.

It was the fact that bots could be programmed to literally index all of the prices of a particular item, and through automation, proceed to buy out every single item which were listed below market price, then resell the items immediately for a higher price. They could do this multiple times a minute; faster than any human could. There are several solutions to this problem which would make an auction house viable in PoE:

(1) Only allow trades to occur when the seller is online to sell an item directly to the buyer (like what we have now, through a trade window). This way, it slows down the rate at which items can be "flipped" by dedicated traders, and the viability of bots are virtually eliminated altogether.

(2) Allow people to list their items, but with no buyout / current offer listed. This still allows buyers to find the exact items they're looking for, but encourages the buyer to contact the seller and have them work it out via good old fashion human negotiation. There will also be less of a "fixed price" mindset for any particular item, since prices are not listed.
But dilution... and stuff.
One common misconception with an auction house / in-game indexer is that people assume the market will be overrun with low-tier items, and only the top-tier items will sell. This is simply untrue. The reason why lower-tier items do not sell as frequently on poe.xyz.is is because most of the users of that site have only discovered that site when they hit end-game, and thus are no longer in the character range to purchase low-level rares/uniques for their characters. With an in-game marketplace, newer users will be exposed to it much earlier on, and will be able to buy lower-tier rares/uniques from the more experienced players who find those items.

Even when it comes to low-rolled uniques, these items are far from completely worthless. For example, there is currently still an abundance of buyers for low-rolled uniques on poe.xyz.is. Some buyers simply want the unique item as build-enablers regardless of the low roll, and will likely reroll the item later with a Divine/Blessed, in hopes of getting higher-rolled stats.
Nerfed drop rates?
The last point of concern is that GGG will nerf drop rates in order to offset the immediate availability of items in the auction house, thus making the auction house the only way to progress item-wise. This isn't a function of the AH itself. It's the function of incompetent developers (like those at Blizzard).

I will say, this is where GGG has to get past the mental block of an auction house somehow making this game too easy for people who use it. The drop rates should be tuned for a player who would never use the Auction House, as I'm sure there are those who would prefer to play self-found anyway. The people who do use the AH are, like I mentioned above, following an inevitable path to a more efficient way of bartering, which in no way affects those who choose to play self-found.
Conclusion:
The progression towards a more mature game necessitates that there be a more mature trading system than simply bartering. The current in-game trading system is akin to throwing a bunch of people in a room and telling them to shout over each other, in hopes some of them will find others who will do business with them.

The popularity of poe.xyz.is is only a testament to how many users actually use the site to trade. In fact, I don't know any end-game mapper who doesn't use Poe.xyz.is. In my own experience, without buyers being able to come to me for items, I would have to spend a disproportionate amount of time in town staring at trade chat. If you imagine Path of Exile as a barebones ecosystem, then the "invention" of Poe.xyz.is and its subsequent popularity is proof that there is indeed a large demand for a categorized/searchable (indexed) database of available items with their associated sellers.

Of course, we can live perfectly happily with poe.xyz.is as a standalone third-party auction house, but I think the devs at GGG can maybe wake up to the possibility that perhaps their dogmatic notion of "NO AUCTION HOUSE" has outlived its efficacy. The Noticeboard can finally be used just for questing/mapping parties. Global chat can finally be free of price checks every other minute. In my opinion, implementing a similar system as poe.xyz.is into the game itself will improve Path of Exile in a massive, massive way.
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Thanks for reading -- looking forward to discussion!
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Last edited by rrtson on Mar 30, 2014, 2:49:36 PM
The great paradox here is that by making trading easier...trading becomes even more rewarding and even more a focus of the game. Playing the game is already as unrewarding as it can possibly get. But I guess I should support that because with easier trading there will be an even bigger outcry for a self found league for people who get sick and tired of a game built as a trade sim.
Standard Forever
If you want a character anywhere near decent you have to play the trade sim. Thats something I came to realize after all the time I wasted trying to play a Self found and ending up with a tone of useless junk, running around in gear i got from normal and having to get through merc. Reason why I rolled a summoner low gear req = no need to play trade sim in poe.
"but i tell u its just fo' try, fo' peep n' fo' know"
Yes, POE does have an AH already. It's a sadly inefficient one, and the lack of any halfway decent trade system is what will eventually drive me away from the game.
tl;dr
only read part of the first spoiler
so you basically want to farm an item for rest of your life?
Valuable items just got shitty drop rates, so basically you'll be farming it for VERY long time before you get it, or in the worst case scenario you, yourself become decomposed before the item drops...
An auction house isn't the problem, an automated auction house without any player interaction is a problem ie you're wrong.
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mozom wrote:
An auction house isn't the problem, an automated auction house without any player interaction is a problem ie you're wrong.


That's... exactly what I said in the "What about D3?" section.
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rrtson wrote:
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mozom wrote:
An auction house isn't the problem, an automated auction house without any player interaction is a problem ie you're wrong.


That's... exactly what I said in the "What about D3?" section.


GGG wants there to be player interaction when trading, and the first idea in your "What about D3" post would kill that.
I can't really refute your second idea though; it wouldn't surprise me if GGG goes with that eventually.
No player interaction while trading would be a blessing. The worst thing about trading is having to deal with flippers, scammers, people who expect you to wait fifteen minutes for them over a stupid 2c item (most likely because they are actually a bot, and you got an auto-response), and/or cretins in your quest to just get the damn item you want.

Sorry, but if the biggest problem you can come up with for that is "but then TRADE BOTS WILL EXIST!" ... then wow, just wow, look around trade chat sometime and try to say that again with a straight face.
"The progression towards a more mature game necessitates that there be a more mature trading system than simply bartering."


.... um... ya lost me. There isn't a more mature system then bartering. As a mature person you understand that there are TWO people in a deal, thus a system of exchange is formed. Somewhere between what you desire to get for the item, and what someone wants to pay for it is the items worth. Through bartering you can determine this value and an exchange is made.

All an auction house tends to do is allow people to judge an items worth based on what other people say it is worth. There is no maturity in looking at what other people want/do and deciding that this is the best course for yourself. There is this misconception that "flippers" and "traders" somehow make money off of nothing. They make money off of understanding what different people want and satisfying multiple parties, whereas the typical gamer is just wanting to slay monsters and expects to do it all on their own.

THIS is why people don't want an auction house, it tends to set prices on items based on "groupthink." Combine that with instant gratification of getting an item you want NOW and you have a recipe for immature commerce. People expect to be able to get what they want, when they want, and then expect they should get it for the price they want.

TLDR: Auction houses are not bad, and bartering is not an outdated form of trade. It is harder, requires mature people, and complex thought. Something lacking from your average person these days. (yes, I am cynical. Yes that comes off as rude. No, I don't care.)
I guess I will have to buy a one way ticket to hell with your lives

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