"hardcore" overflow

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By having monsters with an actual AI that move at the correct speed and require pattern memorisation, adaptation in combat, correct decisions to the correct place at the right time rather than just drone grind for days to face tank it.

What genre do you think this game is. It really sounds like you want movement, positioning, spacing, prediction and learning enemy tells to be a part of poe and I can with certainty that level of depth (the cornerstones of dark souls) will never exist in even the most shallow of forms.

GGG has neither the desire or ability to design meaningful monster AI nor is the game even designed in a way where movement could be integrated into combat for anything but over the top boss fights.

This game at its heart is a hold down right mouse click and win and there is no way to introduce difficulty other than scaling monster damage or monster health.

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Nephalim wrote:

What genre do you think this game is.

arguably, aRPG.
with a side of grind MMO and trade simulator.

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Nephalim wrote:

GGG has neither the desire or ability to design meaningful monster AI

oh they certainly have the ability.
look at the Vaal Oversoul, as a proof of concept which they didn't really build upon.
they also have the technology readily available, and are not limited by D2-era "AI" Brother Laz had to deal with, while designing the Median mods.

I agree about desire.

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Nephalim wrote:

no way to introduce difficulty other than scaling monster damage or monster health.

take a quick look at Torchlight 2. one example out of many.
what you'll see is AI, positioning, monster skills and support skills that synergize with the rest of the group. things that don't damage you directly, but will be your end when with other things who do.
far from Ninja Gaiden (and not even 1/10 as punishing), but not bad for an aRPG.

and on top of that, you have the usual numbers play.
you can do that, once your foundation is good.
TL2 does this masterfully: it can be anything from casually easy to borderline crazy, depending on the difficulty you chose to play, and which "new game" tier you are on.
numbers play, done right. as a layer above good AI.



doing it to replace AI? even though you can do AI and already proved it?
that's one of the things that frustrate me the most about Path Of Exile. more than desync or any other technical issue.
GGG aren't saying "we can't".
they are saying "we can, but we won't so go fuck yourselves, dear players".

This is hardcore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygWV__SMt7M

Hardcore is a term people use as a description to elevate their own achievements.

It has no actual objective base, but is a self-characterization to make up for certain insecurities.

Above that it serves as a distinction between "them" and "us", emphasizing on the superiority of the "us" for being tougher/better/more skilled than "them".

Again an arbitrary distinction stemming from insecurities. Typical sociological phenomena really.

There's the type of difficulty that can be dealt with skill, no need for GG gear, just some hand-eye coordination and patience.

There's the type of difficulty that can only be dealt with gear (checks).

The second one feeds the economy a lot more than the first. And since GGG absolutely loves the economah...

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ConanTheGamebarian wrote:

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crystalwitch wrote:

My definition's even more straight-forward.
To me a hardcore game or a hardcore mode is one where, when your character dies that character is gone for good.

Path of Exile sort of skips around the hardcore line for me, since when you die in a hardcore league, even though the character is gone from that league, the character still exists.

Complains that PoE isn't hardcore enough;

Has been playing since march of 2013, max level is 51 in hardcore.

Nothing to see here, gents.

Sorry if I came across as complaining.

I wasn't actually intending it to be seen as a complaint, I was answering the question johnKeys "just wanted to ask" in the OP and sort of poking fun at what they called a straight-forward definition.

I actually like the way hardcore works in PoE, since if a player forms any particular attachment to their hardcore character and it dies, the character still exists (albeit in standard) while they are actually gone from the hardcore league.

I wouldn't have even added that second paragraph if I wasn't thinking that someone was going to leap on my post and be all: "Gruhg! PoE not do that, why you play hardcore if not real hardcore! You go to Diablo 3!"

And if johnKeys hadn't phrased his OP in such a roundabout way instead of saying, "I don't believe PoE qualifies as a hardcore game. What do you think and why?" I wouldn't have even had the opportunity to give my passive-aggressive reply.

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Burgingham wrote:

Hardcore is a term people use as a description to elevate their own achievements.

It has no actual objective base, but is a self-characterization to make up for certain insecurities.

Above that it serves as a distinction between "them" and "us", emphasizing on the superiority of the "us" for being tougher/better/more skilled than "them".

Again an arbitrary distinction stemming from insecurities. Typical sociological phenomena really.

Armchair psychology too stronk. I could also turn this around and ask why softcore players are going out of their way trying to devalue the achievements of hardcore players :D Any suggestions, Mr. Freud?

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oh they certainly have the ability.
look at the Vaal Oversoul, as a proof of concept which they didn't really build upon.
they also have the technology readily available, and are not limited by D2-era "AI" Brother Laz had to deal with, while designing the Median mods.

I agree about desire.

This is a really poor example as vaal is an act boss that has a one shot kill skill that has a visible tell. You can not simply apply this to non boss monsters without having to radically rework the game from the ground up and find a way to mitigate movement desync. \

This game will always be about how many and how fast you can kill trash mobs(white/blue) of monsters for exp. Act and map bosses might as well not even exist because no one will take the risk for the pitiful gains.


I can not speak to TL as I have never played it but I am certain they do look to it for occasional inspiration.

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Nephalim wrote:

This is a really poor example as vaal is an act boss that has a one shot kill skill that has a visible tell. You can not simply apply this to non boss monsters without having to radically rework the game from the ground up and find a way to mitigate movement desync. \

This game will always be about how many and how fast you can kill trash mobs(white/blue) of monsters for exp. Act and map bosses might as well not even exist because no one will take the risk for the pitiful gains.


I can not speak to TL as I have never played it but I am certain they do look to it for occasional inspiration.

what applies to act bosses, can just as well apply to normal monsters.
in TL2's case, it's the "collective intellect" approach - most trash mobs aren't too smart individually, but a pack of a certain composition can be a good skill-based threat.

and in Vaal Oversoul's case, you need to look beyond the obvious: he's not just "a boss with a well telegraphed 1HKO skill".
he's a boss with multiple ways to hurt you, who can also slow you down so you can be hurt, and actually follows what you do and switches attacks accordingly, with patterns you can learn and use to your advantage.
that, my friend, is AI and skill-based challenge.

GGG CAN indeed do.

I don't think GGG got any ideas from TL1/2, aside from maybe the map system - which they then implemented in the worst way possible.
and TL2 did not invent the maps system, so they could have taken that from elsewhere.

they did take ideas from the crappiest parts of D3, and the grindiest most RMT-infested MMOs - that's for certain.

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and in Vaal Oversoul's case, you need to look beyond the obvious: he's not just "a boss with a well telegraphed 1HKO skill".
he's a boss with multiple ways to hurt you, who can also slow you down so you can be hurt, and actually follows what you do and switches attacks accordingly, with patterns you can learn and use to your advantage.
that, my friend, is AI and skill-based challenge.

GGG CAN indeed do.

Tell me how vaal's skills can be meaningfully adapted to white mobs, champion mobs and rare mobs without needing to rebuild the entire game's combat mechanics.

actual and practical examples.