Is that a gun in your Pocket? PISTOLS

While I don't believe pistols would fit, I do believe even the most ornate crossbows, to include one-handed ones, would.

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Lailokaenus wrote:

With metalworking technology advanced enough to create the elaborate heavy plate armors we see in game, I don't buy the argument that it wouldn't fit the world. That being said, the internet psychologist illustrates what I said about the inherent irrationality that will creep into this. Where guns are involved there is simply going to be too much potential whining to ever justify adding them. Sorry OP, I think we are doomed on this one.

the first flintlocks appeared in the 17th century at which point "technology advanced enough to create the elaborate heavy plate armor" had already existed for hundreds of years. Being that there is a substantial gap between the appearence of articulated platmail and the appearance of firearms in our history I don't think that condition is nearly enough to make the assumption of the exitence of firearms "more plausible" then the alternative.


And frankly your psychological disposition seems every bit as influenced by a hate for the tendency towards firearmless high fantasy as the anti-firearms crowd are by their standpoint. You led of with your first post with passive aggressive condescension- that to me is the mark of someone who's stance has been decided in advance by past arguments on the topic in other games and bears a grudge against those who tend towards objecting to firearms.



Again though, if you read my OP, I'm not completely opposed to firearms- historically accurate flintlocks I'd love just for the novelty.

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bilun wrote:

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Lailokaenus wrote:

With metalworking technology advanced enough to create the elaborate heavy plate armors we see in game, I don't buy the argument that it wouldn't fit the world. That being said, the internet psychologist illustrates what I said about the inherent irrationality that will creep into this. Where guns are involved there is simply going to be too much potential whining to ever justify adding them. Sorry OP, I think we are doomed on this one.

the first flintlocks appeared in the 17th century at which point "technology advanced enough to create the elaborate heavy plate armor" had already existed for hundreds of years. Being that there is a substantial gap between the appearence of articulated platmail and the appearance of firearms in our history I don't think that condition is nearly enough to make the assumption of the exitence of firearms "more plausible" then the alternative.


And frankly your psychological disposition seems every bit as influenced by a hate for the tendency towards firearmless high fantasy as the anti-firearms crowd are by their standpoint. You led of with your first post with passive aggressive condescension- that to me is the mark of someone who's stance has been decided in advance by past arguments on the topic in other games and bears a grudge against those who tend towards objecting to firearms.



Again though, if you read my OP, I'm not completely opposed to firearms- historically accurate flintlocks I'd love just for the novelty.

A psychology major and a history major both huh? Yet not very good marks in either it would seem (just joking, in reality we both know you are neither). You may be interested in researching the psychology term 'projection.' Back on topic though, with 20 seconds of help from wiki I found something to copy paste for you:

"

...full plate armour developed in Europe during the Late Middle Ages, especially in the context of the Hundred Years' War, from the coat of plates worn over mail suits during the 13th century. In Europe plate armour reached its peak in the late 15th and 16th centuries, and the full suit of armour, commonly perceived as "medieval", was actually only a feature of the very end of the Middle Ages and of the Renaissance period.

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Firearms were invented in the 14th century in China,[1] after the Chinese had invented gunpowder in the 9th century.[2][3][4] These inventions were later transmitted to the Middle East, Europe, and Africa.

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The direct ancestor of the firearm is the fire lance, a black-powder–filled tube attached to the end of a spear and used as a flamethrower (not to be confused with the Byzantine flamethrower); shrapnel was sometimes placed in the barrel so that it would fly out together with the flames.[4][5] The earliest depiction of a gunpowder weapon is the illustration of a fire-lance on a mid-12th century silk banner from Dunhuang.

Here is a lovely image of a "old Chinese Hand Cannon on display at the Shaanxi history museum in Xi'An, China. The placard reads "Bronze firearm, Yuan dynasty (1271-1368 ACE)". Photo taken by Yannick Trottier, 2007."

The trivia of Earth history is irrelevant. Wraeclast isn't Earth. A game isn't real life — or at the very least, not totally. A proper game is a medley of the real and the unreal. As such, it uses not the trivia of Earth history, but something far more powerful: the overall feel of it... regardless of whether that feel is historically accurate or not.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The trivia of Earth history is irrelevant. Wraeclast isn't Earth. A game isn't real life — or at the very least, not totally. A proper game is a medley of the real and the unreal. As such, it uses not the trivia of Earth history, but something far more powerful: the overall feel of it... regardless of whether that feel is historically accurate or not.

And you feel in your feelings that this feel excludes projectiles propelled by explosives because feelings? Powerful stuff.

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Lailokaenus wrote:

And you feel in your feelings that this feel excludes projectiles propelled by explosives because feelings?

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Lailokaenus wrote:

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bilun wrote:

the first flintlocks appeared in the 17th century at which point "technology advanced enough to create the elaborate heavy plate armor" had already existed for hundreds of years. Being that there is a substantial gap between the appearence of articulated platmail and the appearance of firearms in our history I don't think that condition is nearly enough to make the assumption of the exitence of firearms "more plausible" then the alternative.


And frankly your psychological disposition seems every bit as influenced by a hate for the tendency towards firearmless high fantasy as the anti-firearms crowd are by their standpoint. You led of with your first post with passive aggressive condescension- that to me is the mark of someone who's stance has been decided in advance by past arguments on the topic in other games and bears a grudge against those who tend towards objecting to firearms.



Again though, if you read my OP, I'm not completely opposed to firearms- historically accurate flintlocks I'd love just for the novelty.

A psychology major and a history major both huh? Yet not very good marks in either it would seem (just joking, in reality we both know you are neither).

Right off the bat with condescension I see. Well lack of polite tone aside, you're right about my major- I'm pure math and the full extent of my college classes in psychology and history respectively are an Into to Pshycology and EconomicHistory of the 20th century class. SO no, my major has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is why I've been checking my facts on wikipedia just like you.

Technicalities aside, a college major in a topic has never been a prequisite for discussing and debating the topic at hand. And frankly my claim of your disposition is at least as well substantiated as your- you make a broad generalization about the psychology of people on the internet- I surmise that the guy brimming with obvious resentment and blatant condescension on the issue may have also made up his mind before entering the thread.

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You may be interested in researching the psychology term 'projection.' Back on topic though, with 20 seconds of help from wiki I found something to copy paste for you:

"

...full plate armour developed in Europe during the Late Middle Ages, especially in the context of the Hundred Years' War, from the coat of plates worn over mail suits during the 13th century. In Europe plate armour reached its peak in the late 15th and 16th centuries, and the full suit of armour, commonly perceived as "medieval", was actually only a feature of the very end of the Middle Ages and of the Renaissance period.

And tell me, what places PoE plate at the height of mastery of metalwork? Honestly most "body armours" in game models are just breastplates, a form of armour that existed well over a thousand years before the dates you've listed

"

"

Firearms were invented in the 14th century in China,[1] after the Chinese had invented gunpowder in the 9th century.[2][3][4] These inventions were later transmitted to the Middle East, Europe, and Africa.

"

The direct ancestor of the firearm is the fire lance, a black-powder–filled tube attached to the end of a spear and used as a flamethrower (not to be confused with the Byzantine flamethrower); shrapnel was sometimes placed in the barrel so that it would fly out together with the flames.[4][5] The earliest depiction of a gunpowder weapon is the illustration of a fire-lance on a mid-12th century silk banner from Dunhuang.

Here is a lovely image of a "old Chinese Hand Cannon on display at the Shaanxi history museum in Xi'An, China. The placard reads "Bronze firearm, Yuan dynasty (1271-1368 ACE)". Photo taken by Yannick Trottier, 2007."

Also you'll note I specifically mentioned "flintlocks" note firearms. This thread has been focused on pistols from the outset. The proposition has been about pistols from the outset and I focused specifically on flintlocks as the first widely knnown pistol. The first pistols appeared during the 16 century, and weren't really widely used until the advent of the flintlock in the 17th century.


The era of pistols and platemail have at best a tiny overlap if you consider the most advance platemail and most rudimentary unreliable first generation of pistols.

And frankly there's no real cause to assuming the world of PoE's metalcraft is at that pinnacle.


Moreover correlation does not imply causation. Metalwork is more craftmanship then applied science/technology. In a setting where for instance the existence of magic stifles scientific advacement, Metalworking techniques would still advance- Heck, magic could potentially be utilized in said craftsmanship. By contrast guns are pure expression of a mastery science and technology that is nowhere presented in the game.


Honestly I'm not so much arguing the game's setting is completely incompatible with guns. if the devs said there were guns it wouldn't be overwhelmingly surprising. I'm merely arguing with how your original post make completely unsubstantiated claims, and I quote:

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Lailokaenus wrote:

..even thought it really makes no practical sense and a world with firearms technology would be much more plausible, immersive, ...

So frankly the burden of proof lies with you. You have yet to point out one conrete aspect of the world around us that implies any form of significant non-magic-driven technological advancement beyond the medieval period has occurred.


Furthermore I've said repeatedly I'd lvoe to see Historically accurate firearms. I would just be dismayed if in what by and large appears to be a medieval society suddenly we have firearms that contend with bows in terms of effective range and accuracy. Firearms did not get accurate at anything beyond a few yards until a MUCH higher tech level.


Furthermore your aggressive tone only serves to further undermine your argument.

I'm not in favour of firearms. It's bad enough that you don't really need arrows to use a bow, but firearms without ammunition/ powder would be equally bad.
So, these firearms would have to be really slow and perhaps have a mod (that doesn't exist yet, I believe) that negates armour - unless we consider them spells. They'd also need an implicit mod that makes them less accurate based on range (maybe a modified point blank would suffice).
Yet somehow (feelings, just like Scrotie) I feel that firearms would partly ruin the game for me.
I wouldn't quit over them, though.

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Mikrotherion wrote:

They'd also need an implicit mod that makes them less accurate based on range (maybe a modified point blank would suffice).

I was going to suggest exactly the same thing but you beat me to it. Projectiles from pistols would get a penalty to accuracy the farther they travel.

Also I edited my OP to include a picture of the pistols under consideration.

how about they introduce rocks, like the ones the cannibals throw?

implicit mod could be 12% chance to chew a party member's face off

+3 to stench
+28% cave damage