The Illusion of Complexity

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thedestroyerofkids wrote:

^
Its OP because its TOO versatile.

It makes 1/2 of all gear in the game that drops usable by your character and therefore eliminates a large chunk of the meaningful choice we are supposed to face.

Thats the weakest reason ive ever heard. But ok then make it so you can only use evasion gear with it.

If benefits mostly dext users .... which see half of their main attribute anihilated.
Yaay.
Str users still have the benefits of their strength however.

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thedestroyerofkids wrote:

It makes 1/2 of all gear in the game that drops usable by your character and therefore eliminates a large chunk of the meaningful choice we are supposed to face.

What meaningfull choice ?
Choose a dext armour instead of a str one ? Why would str user do so ? especially when they can more easily use str armour.
If makes gear easier to find for them in that case ? W00t, a keystone that doesn't change anything about this but make some pieces of gear usable.

Doesn't seem OP ( or should I say : isn't ).

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RagnarokChu wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Fun is one of the best ways to distract people from seeing through illusions, so you're absolutely correct. :)

Works with slot machines; works here too.

Implying PoE (and most aRPGs) isn't just a glorified slot machine.

Put in time. Get something(nothing) out.

They are video games, you get nothing from playing them but fun.

Well, hopefully one gets slightly more. Playing games like the first Bioshock, Dragon Age Origins, Portal, and, yes, Diablo 2 left me with more than just fun. A lot of that "extra" was narrative, and I really can't stress how important storytelling techniques are to a good game... but it's more than just that. Truly great games go beyond entertainment and enrich our lives.

For the most part, ARPGs have relatively simple gameplay but complex metagaming and build design challenges, such that a huge portion of the game is planning rather than execution (for more on this, check out Brother Laz's "Mad Prophecy" articles from the times of pre-D3 hype). The gaming experience of design is a relatively unique niche which fosters great creativity, collobartion, and self-esteem (when it works) and is the reason why games like Magic the Gathering have thrived throughout the years. That's a form of "beyond entertainment." For those who, for whatever reason, don't like turn-based strategy structures, ARPGs fill this creative niche extremely well, in a way alternatives can't match. It's CCG deckbuilding for people who don't like (or are taking a break from) CCGs.

As such, perserving the feeling of build balance should be GGG's top priority for PoE, using both real and illusory balance to achieve the goal — it's too important not to use every method available. (As a side effect, build and itemization balance is the single most effective route to a healthy economy; the more obviously linear an economy becomes, the less variety is encouraged, and the quicker it degenerates due to strictly-superior relationships between items.) The question is: are they succeeding?

And another question: if the game is balanced, but it isn't fun, what's the point?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

And another question: if the game is balanced, but it isn't fun, what's the point?

could you name one? because with balance comes challenge/competition and this is a value in itself. the fun part comes from there

i find clay shooting boring as hell when doing it solo (once you know how to do it you do it on auto), but having 4 guys having a bet and going for it - fun as hell. and we all have the same gun, clays and range.. perfect balance

i simply cannot imagine balanced game that is boring! for me it is an impossibility..

Hi

The illusion of complexity:


Conclusion: Tribbles are fun and have no point. This game has no point and isn't nearly as fun as tribbles.

cheers

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Fruz wrote:

If benefits mostly dext users .... which see half of their main attribute anihilated.
Yaay.
Str users still have the benefits of their strength however.

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thedestroyerofkids wrote:

It makes 1/2 of all gear in the game that drops usable by your character and therefore eliminates a large chunk of the meaningful choice we are supposed to face.

What meaningfull choice ?
Choose a dext armour instead of a str one ? Why would str user do so ? especially when they can more easily use str armour.
If makes gear easier to find for them in that case ? W00t, a keystone that doesn't change anything about this but make some pieces of gear usable.

Doesn't seem OP ( or should I say : isn't ).

IR lets you wear hybrid Ev/Ar gear, which provides 10-20% more armour than either Ev or Ar gear at similar gear levels.

Yup. Have fun.

IR is better for hybrid armour than pure armour. Go figure. In terms of getting Ar anyway.

Having a mix between AR and EV is the best defense in the game atm, because it gives a significant defense against bosses ( without granite ) and a significant defense against anything else, where armor is nullified unless you stack tremendous amounts of it using a granite flask ( which is bugged from the wording, now maybe the wording is wrong and not the way it work, idk ).

So basically, AR + EV > AR + EV with IR.

Besides, what really gives more armor/evasion is the fact that you can roll one flat roll for each of them plus the %roll, and having all 3 of them with a high value is sooo unlikely that it makes it incredibly difficult to roll and therefore very expensive to buy => it's more like a niche case.

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Fruz wrote:

Having a mix between AR and EV is the best defense in the game atm, because it gives a significant defense against bosses ( without granite ) and a significant defense against anything else, where armor is nullified unless you stack tremendous amounts of it using a granite flask ( which is bugged from the wording, now maybe the wording is wrong and not the way it work, idk ).

So basically, AR + EV > AR + EV with IR.

Besides, what really gives more armor/evasion is the fact that you can roll one flat roll for each of them plus the %roll, and having all 3 of them with a high value is sooo unlikely that it makes it incredibly difficult to roll and therefore very expensive to buy => it's more like a niche case.

Well yah. Hybrid kicks everything's ass, but it's true that at the absolute worst gear you've got an extra 20% AR wearing hybrid gear and using IR.

In better gear it goes down closer to 10%, assuming you have a hybrid% roll and a single local defense roll (either kind). If you have two flat rolls you're going to have almost 40% more Ar than a pure Ar piece, but that's another discussion.

Granites aren't bugged, they just don't reflect the fact that it's getting an Ar bonus from your passives in the tooltip, nor does it reflect the fact that the +100% armour roll you should have on it is global.

But an "Ar" character who wants to use IR for whatever reason does have the option of trading an affix on his gear for an extra 10% base armour or so.

Yeah, but it still is less effective overall than without IR, unless in niche cases : characters with more than 20~25k armor without granite.
And I don't think that a keystone allowing niche builds like this is a bad thing, au contraire.

It is true that it has a little more armor globally if you take it without godly mods, but then you have to take inc armor values to fully benefit from it and not inc evasion, they are more difficult to get globally ( I don't understand why though ).
You can still take hybrid defense nodes but they arn't quite as effective as the other ones in this case ( and not as effective as not having IR with a hybrid set at all ).


Sorry I didn't mean granite, I meant the mods that you can have on a flask, my bad on that.
Flasks on Iron skins give you xx% increased armor .... and it acts more like xx% MORE armor, which is not the same thing at all, especially on a granite flask ( same for jades and xx% inc evasion rating ).
That's what I meant.

have you ever played IR char? it sounds as if you didnt

IR+Grace+Determination+BLIND == maximum armor + 75% effective miss rate for attacks

no way pure armor is better than that and absolutely nothing beats it in cost/benefit ratio

IR is broken as hell due to the mere existence Blind exists. and even without it it allows for MORE armor than pure ar. for one easily reachable keystone and one/two auras it is unbeatable in cost/benefit ratio