The Illusion of Complexity

"

sodium777 wrote:

Diablo 3; Pick a number out of 1-6
PoE; Pick a number out of 1-9999. All the numbers above 5 are trash non-optimal builds.
Diablo 2; Pick a number out of 1-200. Numbers above 25 are crappy non optimal builds

that is not completely fair poe has about 20 core builds , and about 20000 that are slight deviations of those builds .

"

Robert_Paulson wrote:

So many skill gems, yet most are either buggy as hell (eg cyclone) or just weaker than other choices. Most people use the same select few skill gems, while the rest are the domain of newbies, until they find out that that skill they've been using is terrible when compared to the "viable" few.

Expansive skill tree, yet many of the nodes are just useless, or comparitively weaker than others. Most people use the same select few passives (eg life nodes), while the rest are the domain of newbies, until they find out that their passive tree is terrible and they need to reroll into a "viable" build.

Plenty of items/mods, yet many are just useless (eg reduced requirements) or just weaker than others. Most people look for the same set of optimal mods regardless of their "build", while the rest of them are the domain of newbies, until they learn that gear should be +life/%def/+def/res/res/res or it's vendor trash.
Uniques are mostly trash, with a handful of useful low-level/common items, and a handful of high-level/you're-never-going-to-find-it-rare-trollface.jpg items.

Once you cut the wheat from the chaff, there's not a lot of wheat left.

Discuss.

Yeah, i agree with most of that. There are a more than a few viable skills, however, but there are also a lot of quite useless ones (for example, Elemental Hit is useless due to insane manacost, Sweep is useless due to Leap Slam being better, etc). Some skills just copy-paste each other - Cleave and Ground Slam, for example.... or Fireball and Arctic Breath... Or Melee Physical Damage and Melee Damage on Full life (two identical supports LOL, one of which works for ES builds only). Instead of implementing some new gems, that are obviously useless (like Enlighten), GGG should improve existing ones, to make them competive. And no, i dont want the improve they made for DoT damage, which in fact screwed DoT and Ignite skills futhermore, and driven damage scaling out of original concept.

I should admit, when you are familiar with builds, you will find obvious cookie-cuter nodes for passive tree, while some being absolutely useless. Life nodes are also velued too highly, and common life nodes are picked in excessive numbers, even if they lead to nowhere. Why would anyone get 6% damage and 8% accuracy with daggers node, that leads to nowhere? Or +8% weapon elemental damage? Or +3% attack speed? Why no one want to pick those (unless they lead to big fancy node, or required to create a "backbone")? I can point to a VAST number of nodes, that no one, or almost no one will pick.

Same for item mods. I can agree that some mods are situational, and wont be required by anyone. For example, mana or accuracy mods - they are quite useful, but only if your build needs them. I also can agree that mods can have different values, and even high-level gear can roll weakest mods (because otherwise good items would drop too often, probably).
But i CANT agree that some mods, which can spawn only on high-level items, are ABSOLUTELY useless for character that meets their level requirement.
Examples?
Life gain on hit suffix - while 2 life on hit at 8 level can be fancy, 5 life on hit at 40 level is just a garbage, and it doesnt improve further (no appropriate roll for 60+ level).

Life on Kill - total garbage, from 1 level to endgame. Values are just too low, 11 life on kill at 40 level - just LOL.

Life regeneration - 420 life per minute for level 78? That's 6.6 life per second. In the game, where you should have at least 2k life at that moment, those 6.6 life per second (that cant be improved by any other stats) are just ridiculous!

Other mods - like Weapon elemental damage increase on weapons, or % increased elemental damage mods - are useful, but quite weak. Mods, that are on maxed value, should be more useful.

Been here.

Done this.

It's most likely not going to change.

The proper complaint is not that there is an illusion of complexity, but that it is so obviously solved. There's a strong irony in a post which proclaims the "illusion of complexity;" apparently there isn't really any illusion, because the author sees right through it.

The proper game design of an ARPG involves having right answers and wrong answers, which means that many of your options are only "good" in an illusory context, and are technically subpar. This is the way every good ARPG is, even Diablo 2. You only really begin to run into problems when it becomes too simple for players to see through the illusions; a good illusion, as a general rule, fools people.

When it becomes truly difficult to determine which builds are best... that's when the game has a feeling of balance. And it's unrealistic and over-idealistic to believe such a task would be completed without any use of illusory balance whatsoever, because both true and illusory balance accomplish the same feeling. One should use all tools within one's arsenal.

So on the one hand, it's imperative to understand that some players will see through the illusions and find the very best build (or builds, but that's rare). So let's not pretend just because you're good at the game means the game is poorly designed.

But on the other hand, the average player is a lot older and smarter than they were back in D2's heyday, so the bar is raised in terms of crafting good illusions; the population is harder to fool and thus demands a higher quality of illusion.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

The proper complaint is not that there is an illusion of complexity, but that it is so obviously solved. There's a strong irony in a post which proclaims the "illusion of complexity;" apparently there isn't really any illusion, because the author sees right through it.

The proper game design of an ARPG involves having right answers and wrong answers, which means that many of your options are only "good" in an illusory context, and are technically subpar. This is the way every good ARPG is, even Diablo 2. You only really begin to run into problems when it becomes too simple for players to see through the illusions; a good illusion, as a general rule, fools people.

When it becomes truly difficult to determine which builds are best... that's when the game has a feeling of balance. And it's unrealistic and over-idealistic to believe such a task would be completed without any use of illusory balance whatsoever, because both true and illusory balance accomplish the same feeling. One should use all tools within one's arsenal.

So on the one hand, it's imperative to understand that some players will see through the illusions and find the very best build (or builds, but that's rare). So let's not pretend just because you're good at the game means the game is poorly designed.

But on the other hand, the average player is a lot older and smarter than they were back in D2's heyday, so the bar is raised in terms of crafting good illusions; the population is harder to fool and thus demands a higher quality of illusion.

Well to be honest it's only a problem when people have the self-defeating goal of trying to beat the game the "best" way as oppose to the way they want to have fun. Even if they made 1000 different optimal ways for you to be min/max that would mean there are countless other options that aren't. The illusion would be that even if you aren't "min/maxed" theoretically math and theory wise that your having too much fun to give a shit.

"

RagnarokChu wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Spoiler

The proper complaint is not that there is an illusion of complexity, but that it is so obviously solved. There's a strong irony in a post which proclaims the "illusion of complexity;" apparently there isn't really any illusion, because the author sees right through it.

The proper game design of an ARPG involves having right answers and wrong answers, which means that many of your options are only "good" in an illusory context, and are technically subpar. This is the way every good ARPG is, even Diablo 2. You only really begin to run into problems when it becomes too simple for players to see through the illusions; a good illusion, as a general rule, fools people.

When it becomes truly difficult to determine which builds are best... that's when the game has a feeling of balance. And it's unrealistic and over-idealistic to believe such a task would be completed without any use of illusory balance whatsoever, because both true and illusory balance accomplish the same feeling. One should use all tools within one's arsenal.

So on the one hand, it's imperative to understand that some players will see through the illusions and find the very best build (or builds, but that's rare). So let's not pretend just because you're good at the game means the game is poorly designed.

But on the other hand, the average player is a lot older and smarter than they were back in D2's heyday, so the bar is raised in terms of crafting good illusions; the population is harder to fool and thus demands a higher quality of illusion.

Well to be honest it's only a problem when people have the self-defeating goal of trying to beat the game the "best" way as oppose to the way they want to have fun. Even if they made 1000 different optimal ways for you to be min/max that would mean there are countless other options that aren't. The illusion would be that even if you aren't "min/maxed" theoretically math and theory wise that your having too much fun to give a shit.

Fun is one of the best ways to distract people from seeing through illusions, so you're absolutely correct. :)

Works with slot machines; works here too.

There are some serious problems with some abilities atm. Melee splash basically ruined every melee aoe in the game. Spectral throw made melee not melee. Nearly every spell costs way too much mana. I really hope these things are being addressed between leagues.

"

Gravethought wrote:

There are some serious problems with some abilities atm. Melee splash basically ruined every melee aoe in the game. Spectral throw made melee not melee. Nearly every spell costs way too much mana. I really hope these things are being addressed between leagues.

sadly, i doubt it

melee splash and multistrike both dumbed down the melee part A LOT. but that was long time ago and nothing had changed

melee splash turned any melee into aoe, this gem is simply mandatory for skills that arent inherently AOE. multistrike made melee into 'attack speed first'. hate both changes. but the second anyone suggests any change to these two band of min-maxers attacks. for some of them CoD+mines+zombies was not an exploit..

spectral throw should get a hefty nerf seeing as most 1week racers used it with very similar build is telling.

but again, IR was incredibly OP in Closed Beta, open beta and in 'release' and it still is. so dont expect anything to change. 'release' was a huge let down to people expecting balanced and TESTED gameplay. balance is nowhere to be seen and tested part.. trigger gems were a disaster that this game is still recovering

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

Gravethought wrote:

There are some serious problems with some abilities atm. Melee splash basically ruined every melee aoe in the game. Spectral throw made melee not melee. Nearly every spell costs way too much mana. I really hope these things are being addressed between leagues.

sadly, i doubt it

melee splash and multistrike both dumbed down the melee part A LOT. but that was long time ago and nothing had changed

melee splash turned any melee into aoe, this gem is simply mandatory for skills that arent inherently AOE. multistrike made melee into 'attack speed first'.

I think you're stuck in a one-dimensional viewpoint. Both Melee Splash and Multistrike reduce the max damage of each hit in exchange for giving you AoE or boosting your APS. Consequently, it's rarely advisable to link both to the same skill, you need to evaluate the pros and cons in each case. Moreover, the use of Life Leech versus LGoH supports are significant choices that interact with Melee Splash and Multistrike. Just these four gems alone give you a wide range of options in customizing each melee attack to your particular needs.

IMO, the vast majority of complaints in this thread are misguided. Skill and support gems are raw materials provided as-is for players to exploit as we see fit. It is not GGG's responsibility to pre-optimize the skills for our ease of use or to make them fool-proof and free of hazards and side-effects. That task falls in our laps, and I find balancing the cost vs. power aspects of skill gems one of the most engaging challenges of the game.

"

RogueMage wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

Gravethought wrote:

There are some serious problems with some abilities atm. Melee splash basically ruined every melee aoe in the game. Spectral throw made melee not melee. Nearly every spell costs way too much mana. I really hope these things are being addressed between leagues.

sadly, i doubt it

melee splash and multistrike both dumbed down the melee part A LOT. but that was long time ago and nothing had changed

melee splash turned any melee into aoe, this gem is simply mandatory for skills that arent inherently AOE. multistrike made melee into 'attack speed first'.

I think you're stuck in a one-dimensional viewpoint. Both Melee Splash and Multistrike reduce the max damage of each hit in exchange for giving you AoE or boosting your APS. Consequently, it's rarely advisable to link both to the same skill, you need to evaluate the pros and cons in each case. Moreover, the use of Life Leech versus LGoH supports are significant choices that interact with Melee Splash and Multistrike. Just these four gems alone give you a wide range of options in customizing each melee attack to your particular needs.

IMO, the vast majority of complaints in this thread are misguided. Skill and support gems are raw materials provided as-is for players to exploit as we see fit. It is not GGG's responsibility to pre-optimize the skills for our ease of use or to make them fool-proof and free of hazards and side-effects. That task falls in our laps, and I find balancing the cost vs. power aspects of skill gems one of the most engaging challenges of the game.

you get 300+ pdps weapon and you can safely link splash and multistrike because your dmg output is so great that you can easily pay the price. people do it all the time

the 'choice' point is moot. it is a flat algorithm based entirely on weapon and passive tree (in this order). attack speed is always better. it works for flat dmg bonuses better. multistrike with high enough level has almost no penalty. melee splash part is also moot - hey, you CAN have a separate single-target skill! (with iir/culling if you want)

and spare me that elitist 'you are stuck etc'. you are theorycrafting something that does not match high-map experience people have. multistrike+melee splash are no brainer options for skills that support them (sadly)