The Illusion of Complexity

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sidtherat wrote:

have you ever played IR char? it sounds as if you didnt

IR+Grace+Determination+BLIND == maximum armor + 75% effective miss rate for attacks

no way pure armor is better than that and absolutely nothing beats it in cost/benefit ratio

IR is broken as hell due to the mere existence Blind exists. and even without it it allows for MORE armor than pure ar. for one easily reachable keystone and one/two auras it is unbeatable in cost/benefit ratio

Blind has absolutely NOTHING ( see ? I can use bbcode too ) to do here, it is even more effective with evasion since it reduces a lot the probability of small hits from monsters making the bigger ones hit.
Plus when you eventually get a crit through the blind that can potentially anihilate your armor, you don't get it ( almost never ) with evasion.


And yes, I have played many evasion chars.

And no, IR is not broken.


WoW, you max your armor through using most likeley all your mana reserve + a big number of nodes + a keystone : omagad what an OP combination of half of what makes your character only for armor !

IR is broken because in min/max games like PoE, having a massive amount of defense is almost always better then having a mediocre amount of one defense and a mediocre amount of another defense, especially with defenses increasing multiplicatively like they do in PoE.

When you take into account items, its much easier to get a 400 + 400 Evasion/Armor chest then it is to get a 800 Armor chest, or 800 Evasion chest, simply due to how rolls work. Then you combine it with things like flasks (granite/jade) and determination multiplying all of that as well

IR would be just as broken if it was with evasion instead of armor.

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deteego wrote:

IR is broken because in min/max games like PoE, having a massive amount of defense is almost always better then having a mediocre amount of one defense and a mediocre amount of another defense, especially with defenses increasing multiplicatively like they do in PoE.

When you take into account items, its much easier to get a 400 + 400 Evasion/Armor chest then it is to get a 800 Armor chest, or 800 Evasion chest, simply due to how rolls work. Then you combine it with things like flasks (granite/jade) and determination multiplying all of that as well

IR would be just as broken if it was with evasion instead of armor.

First of all, have your really tried a hybrid ev/ar char ? I bet no.
ev/ar is more effective in term of survability because it protects you against all kind of hits, the small ones, and the big ones. The only real exception being builds stacking tremendous amount of armor + using a granite flask of Iron skin.
But actually, a good ar/ve build ( with a good gear then ) would reach almost the same armor value ( let's say that the chest only has two good rolls for the ar/ev since the last one is life, and that ar is the flat one ).

Secondly, you can get 700ev + 300 armor on a hybrid chest with one roll, there are just two different rolls that can lead to 800ev. But anyway, 800 evasion alone is unsignificant due to how easy it is to roll it. Chests start being good in term of evasion/armor from ~1500 ( = two rolls ).
And getting a ~1500 evasion chest is as easy as getting a ~1300 evasion + ~600 armor ( or the other way around ), so your datas/examples are just wrong.

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Fruz wrote:

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deteego wrote:

IR is broken because in min/max games like PoE, having a massive amount of defense is almost always better then having a mediocre amount of one defense and a mediocre amount of another defense, especially with defenses increasing multiplicatively like they do in PoE.

When you take into account items, its much easier to get a 400 + 400 Evasion/Armor chest then it is to get a 800 Armor chest, or 800 Evasion chest, simply due to how rolls work. Then you combine it with things like flasks (granite/jade) and determination multiplying all of that as well

IR would be just as broken if it was with evasion instead of armor.

First of all, have your really tried a hybrid ev/ar char ? I bet no.
ev/ar is more effective in term of survability because it protects you against all kind of hits, the small ones, and the big ones. The only real exception being builds stacking tremendous amount of armor + using a granite flask of Iron skin.
But actually, a good ar/ve build ( with a good gear then ) would reach almost the same armor value ( let's say that the chest only has two good rolls for the ar/ev since the last one is life, and that ar is the flat one ).

Secondly, you can get 700ev + 300 armor on a hybrid chest with one roll, there are just two different rolls that can lead to 800ev. But anyway, 800 evasion alone is unsignificant due to how easy it is to roll it. Chests start being good in term of evasion/armor from ~1500 ( = two rolls ).
And getting a ~1500 evasion chest is as easy as getting a ~1300 evasion + ~600 armor ( or the other way around ), so your datas/examples are just wrong.

Lol...... do you understand how hard it would be for an Ar/Ev build to get anywhere close to the amount of armor an IR build gets? You'd have to severely gimp your tree so bad of damage that you'd fall asleep clicking the mobs.

And Blind / Evasion based builds are great until that one hit finally goes through and kills you. Good luck with that.

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Fruz wrote:

Yeah, but it still is less effective overall than without IR, unless in niche cases : characters with more than 20~25k armor without granite.
And I don't think that a keystone allowing niche builds like this is a bad thing, au contraire.

It is true that it has a little more armor globally if you take it without godly mods, but then you have to take inc armor values to fully benefit from it and not inc evasion, they are more difficult to get globally ( I don't understand why though ).
You can still take hybrid defense nodes but they arn't quite as effective as the other ones in this case ( and not as effective as not having IR with a hybrid set at all ).


Sorry I didn't mean granite, I meant the mods that you can have on a flask, my bad on that.
Flasks on Iron skins give you xx% increased armor .... and it acts more like xx% MORE armor, which is not the same thing at all, especially on a granite flask ( same for jades and xx% inc evasion rating ).
That's what I meant.

You don't have to take increased armour global mods, since once you take IR it doesn't care either way.

Last I checked Iron Skin is operating as a normal increased modifier, but since very few builds stack significant increased armour globally it certainly seem like more.

If you can get one shot with any build, then it means that you f*cked it up, period.

What you say is pure hypocrisy honestly.
A physical hit that would do 5~6k+ damage ? How much armor do you need for it to make a real difference ? How many build have that amount of armor ? ( you can't always perma granite, you know it ).
=> this is just being hypocritical, a hit that would one shot a well built evasion build would also most likely one shot 95+% of the armored build ( or just build not using evasion as a main defense ) used in PoE for at least lvl 70+ maps, I can easily bet on that.

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Autocthon wrote:

You don't have to take increased armour global mods, since once you take IR it doesn't care either way. Last I checked Iron Skin is operating as a normal increased modifier, but since very few builds stack significant increased armour globally it certainly seem like more.

With hybrid gear, evasion boosting mods only boost the evasion part that gets converted, where armor modifiers affect both.

And if you can go from 20k armor to 60k with a flask, there is a problem somewhere ( and I've seen it somewhere in a forum, don't remember where exactly though ).


And Btw, there is an easy 64% inc ar/ev cluster, and reaching 100% global bonus in both stats is not difficult if one wants to be hybrid speced.

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Fruz wrote:

With hybrid gear, evasion boosting mods only boost the evasion part that gets converted, where armor modifiers affect both.

And if you can go from 20k armor to 60k with a flask, there is a problem somewhere ( and I've seen it somewhere in a forum, don't remember where exactly though ).

ahhh referring to armour% global boosts. Screw those. There's only three slots worth getting them on, and 60% global armour is blah if you already have some from passives.

As far as going from 20k to 60k, that happens because of the way the math works, for example;

10k base armour +100% Armour = 20k armour
+Perfect granite
13k base armour + 200% Armour = 39k armour

Seems like a more bonus, but it's the extra 3k armour. Gettying to 60k requires very low base armour wit ha high multipplier, for instance;

4k base armour +500% armour = 20k armour
+Perfect granite
7k Base armour +600% Armour = 49k armour

Edit: You may have seen my thread dissecting raw potential armour, where I posted an example where a character with already ludicrous armoru values essentially doubled in armour once he granited+jaded.

Sure, explain me how you have 10k base armor.
Or explain me how you get 500%inc armor ( considering 50% more from determination, that makes it ~335% base inc armor inc armor ).

What I'm saying is it isn't outside the realm of possibility for a well geared or high level player. You're talking to one of the biggest Ev proponents on the forums.

This applies to 0.001% of the char maybe.
It is possible, but bringing that to say something like "evasion sucks because you're gonna eventually get one shot" is pure hypocrisy, I think that you know it.

Now from your example, I'm seriously looking forward to see a 10k armor base character, because I doubt that it is possible ( without granite, as your example ).