Updated 2/19/2014 Anti-RMT Self-Found Tags for ALL Leagues in All Windows + SF Maps (other details)

Perfect_Black brought up a point regarding whether or not Self-Found items are considered SF if SF-tagged players are permitted to party with players who are not SF-tagged.

In a PM to Perfect_Black, the answer is neither a definite Yes or No to which I replied:

"

HeavyMetalGear wrote:

I know what you mean by piggy-backing items, but more than not, SF-tagged players and non SF-tagged players when partied together would both be contributing to damage output, IIR, IIQ, and assistance on the battlefield in which everyone getting their fair share of items is justifiable.

And if you go back to my OP and open up one of the spoilers, it says:

"Dropped items from bosses and normal enemies is anyone’s to grab. There is no SF-tag-only drops from bosses or normal enemies. How can items be SF-tagged if the items have not been tagged yet by players with SF tags? Bosses / enemies have no reason to SF Tag drops."

followed by:

"Then again, if the true FIX here is to have enemies / bosses drop SF-tagged items for SF-tagged players only, it would FIX the problem, but this would probably require a lot of programming."

Furthermore, IF the above is viable for a certain FIX, then that would mean SF-tagged items would need to be visible only to SF-tagged players when they drop."

P.S. Since I didn't want player separation between SF-tagged players and non SF-tagged players, allowing these players to party together is the only way to keep everyone playing together since GGG will not OK an idea that promotes player separation.

#6 in the list below (from 1 to 14) is very important and should be read very carefully since it includes two separate fixes / ideas, one of which would probably require a lot of programming YET would fix the only problem with SF tags.

Introduction / Anti-RMT (Real-Money Trading) details / and SF Tag Trade Penalties:

The idea of SF-tagged gear, what characters can use it and what characters cannot use it, would require PoE’s game code to simply do an ID check on whether or not A: characters are SF-tagged or B: characters are not SF-tagged.

Remember, there are only penalties (no restrictions) if you choose to trade or equip gear without SF tags in any way, shape, or form.

Furthermore, it does not matter if your characters are on the same or two separate accounts in which the trade penalties (mentioned below) between non SF-tagged characters and SF-tagged characters still applies. This then does away with account exploits between non SF-tagged characters trading with SF-tagged characters AND other SF-tagged characters.

When your SF Tag is lost after trading another player in the Trade Window, you then permanently become a non SF-tagged player in which you can trade as much you want.

Since these are the trading penalties IF you trade at any time with another player as a SF-tagged character (whether trading between two separate accounts or not,) this then makes SF tags immune to RMT (Real-Money Trading) sites in which no profit can be garnered.

NOTE: The only way SF-tagged gear can be worn by another SF-tagged character is if both characters are on the same account. However, if you got two computers with two separate accounts, per se, one SF-tagged character from Account 1 trading with another SF-tagged character from Account 2, it then incurs the penalty of losing the SF Tag on both the character(s) and all traded items between those characters on the two separate accounts.

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PoE’s ID-checking game code would occur in the event of players trying to trade SF-tagged items, players trying to pick up SF-tagged items, and players trying to use OR equip SF-tagged items.

Numbers 1, 2, 6, 8, 10, 11 and 14 would require PoE’S ID-checking game code.

1. Maps that become SF-tagged (when SF-tagged players pick them up in parties) are for SF-tagged players only to run. Therefore, players who are not SF-tagged cannot participate in SF-tagged maps in any way, shape, or form.

Then again, here is the cool catch-22: SF-tagged players can still participate in Maps without SF tags found by players without SF tags.

This above stated is made possible since the only real way to get Map drops, anyway, is to participate in Maps without SF tags.

So while there is a very minor case of player separation regarding SF-tagged players and their SF-tagged Maps, I still think it's a neat idea thanks to 2ofSpades for bringing it up.

2. SF-tagged players who attempt to equip gear without SF tags will be given the notification message, "Equipping this item will result in losing your Self-Found (SF) Tag. Are you sure you want to equip this item?" (followed by the options Yes or No.)

The above stated is so SF-tagged players do not lose their SF Tag by accident when attempting to use equipment without SF tags.

In addition to the above stated, players who are not SF-tagged who attempt to use crafting materials found by SF-tagged characters will be given the notification message, "You cannot use Self-Found (SF) crating materials."

On the other hand, players who are SF-tagged who attempt to use crafting materials found by characters without SF tags will be given the notification message, "You cannot use crafting materials without a Self-Found (SF) Tag."

3. For those who may not want to see displayed SF tags, there would be an option to Enable / Disable the visibility of SF tags. (IF possible.)

4. All already-existing characters (if ever this idea is put in place at any time) would be grandfathered into using the new SF Tag feature, and your items will not be SF-tagged.

The only time items would become SF-tagged is if you maintain(ed) your SF Tag (without trading anyone) in which any new items you find becomes SF-tagged.

5. When making a new character, no matter if you choose to Enable or Disable Trade Requests, everyone is assigned a SF Tag to wear, that which can be lost if you attempt to trade anyone.

The reason for this is so players do not harass other players with Trade Request they may not want, and to also make sure players don’t lose their SF Tag by accident by accepting a Trade.

6. Dropped gear becomes immediately SF-tagged by SF-tagged players, thereby making it impossible for players who are not SF-tagged, and other SF-tagged players, to pick up SF-tagged gear dropped by SF-tagged players.

In this case, the only one who can pick up dropped SF-tagged items is the owner of the dropped SF-tagged items. No one else can pick them up. (this is to discourage drop trading only when it comes to SF-tagged players)

Read #5 on how players can remove SF Tags on SF-tagged gear (and its penalty)

To allow the complete opposite to be allowed would create 'drop trading' exploits.

The idea here is to discourage (not restrict) trading between other SF-tagged players, and players who are not SF-tagged.

With that in mind . . .

Dropped items from bosses and normal enemies is anyone’s to grab. There is no SF-tag-only drops from bosses or normal enemies. How can items be SF-tagged if the items have not been tagged yet by players with SF tags? Bosses / enemies have no reason to SF Tag drops.

Then again, if the true FIX here is to have enemies / bosses drop SF-tagged items for SF-tagged players only, it would FIX the problem, but this would probably require a lot of programming.

Furthermore, IF the above is viable for a certain FIX, then that would mean SF-tagged items would need to be visible only to SF-tagged players when they drop.

7. SF Tags apply to player Life Bars, the Chat Window by player names (next to the other tag,) the Party Window, and items that are SF-tagged after picked up by SF-tagged players.

8. SF-tagged players trading other SF-tagged players (or players who are not SF-tagged) lose their SF Tag. However, SF tags on your SF-tagged gear is not automatically removed as a result so long as you never place your SF-tagged gear in the Trade Window.

The only way SF tags on SF-tagged gear can be removed is if your SF-tagged gear is placed within the Trade Window, thereby immediately removing all SF tags on SF-tagged gear.

The reason SF tags on SF-tagged items are not penalized --- due to SF-tagged players attempting to Trade --- is because you may want your other SF-tagged characters to use the gear from characters that are no longer SF-tagged.

Therefore, again, only the SF Tag on the character itself is removed (not from SF-tagged items) if ever your SF-tagged character attempts to Trade another player.

9. The ONLY items that can be traded between SF-tagged players and players who are not SF-tagged are Wisdom Scrolls and Portal Scrolls. However, they must be dropped, not traded!

The reason they must be dropped and not traded is because, again, if a SF-tagged player trades other players who are SF-tagged (or players who are not SF-tagged,) they lose their SF Tag.

10. Since SF tags would be spread across all leagues, and your Stash is shared globally between all characters within a specific league, items belonging to SF-tagged characters cannot be used in any way, shape, or form by characters that are not SF-tagged.

The only thing characters without SF tags can do with SF-tagged equipment is move it around in the Inventory or Stash. On the other hand, SF-tagged characters can also move equipment around without SF tags in the Inventory or Stash.

11. On the flipside, your SF-tagged characters CAN use gear that’s not SF-tagged from characters that are not SF-tagged, however, you would lose your SF Tag as a result!

12. Enabling and Disabling Trade Requests would (or should be) an option in the Options Window.

Note: This does not assign your character(s) another SF Tag if you lose it!

13. Players trying to Trade players who have Trade Requests disabled would get the message, "You cannot Trade that player."

The only way you can trade these players is if they enable Trade Requests in their options.

14. SF-tagged gear cannot be touched by crafting materials found by characters without a SF Tag.

"

CCR5 wrote:

"

HeavyMetalGear wrote:

The OP has been optimized.HeavyMetalGear

This is half solution which requires MOAR programming efforts than plain SFL.

Let's compare the developer time between SFL and SF tags . . .

Self-Found League programming / features / design requirements:

1. GGG's developers would have to design a new SF league flag for all players within the SFL and for it to be displayed in all the appropriate windows.

2. GGG's developers would have to implement another league and league flag displayed in the Leagues Options Screen upon character creation.

However, there is no room for another league flag, which would then require GGG's developers to have to re-size everything within the current League Options Screen.

3. RNG and drop rates would have to be changed by GGG's developers for all currency and each enemy and boss type throughout the world of Wraelclast. (That's a lot of values to go through!)

Not to mention, GGG's developers would quite possibly be forced to have to change the RNG and drop rates for other leagues, too, since players are going to call it 'unfair' that the SFL gets RNG and drop rate changes, but the SC, HC, Domination and Nemesis leagues do not.

However, if it came to that, GGG would probably need to get rid of the SFL entirely in which all their time has gone to waste implementing the SFL. But GGG is not stupid because they know if they make a SFL, there is no going back

GGG already knows the issues I speak of, which is why it will never be in PoE.

4. GGG's developers will also need to maintain new features, etc. pertaining to the SFL, and implement newly emerging suggestions in the suggestions forums. Not only that, there would be additional bugs to fix since there would be a new league being the SFL.

To example what I mean by features alone (not to mention, bug fixes,) here is what I mean:

The Domination League: A variety of powerful shrines spawn along with large groups of monsters that receive powerful buffs from the shrine. If you get close to a shrine and "tag" it, you receive the shrine's bonuses for a short time.

The Nemesis League: A hardcore league where rare monsters have one guaranteed mod from the Nemesis Pool, which can make a fight substantially harder. Rare monsters are more powerful, make players weaker, or have special effects on death.

But what about Self-Found League? Now GGG's developers would also need to program / design a whole new system for the SFL (whatever that would be.)

Overall (guessing GGG's staff works 10 hours a day,) you're looking at a solid week and 1/2 of work to get everything right, about 100 uninterrupted hours total, if not, less than that.

Within that 100 hours (or less) that includes testing, too.

Self-Found Tags programming / features / design requirements:

1. GGG's developers would have to implement game code where immediately after a player makes a new character, the text (TEXT!) 'SF' is added to the Party Window, player Life Bars, and create a 10x10 (if not smaller) SF badge next to SF-tagged player names within the Chat Window.

2. GGG's developers would have to implement game code where if SF-tagged players pick up an item, it becomes SF-tagged within the item's tooltip.

3. GGG's developers would have to implement identification game code where if a player is SF-tagged attempting to trade someone who does not have a SF Tag (or another player who is SF-tagged,) the action would be to remove the 'SF' text from all windows (consult #1)

4. GGG's developers would have to implement identification game code where if items are seen as not being SF-tagged, and the player is SF-tagged, the SF Tag (not SF tags on items) is removed.

5. GGG's developers would have to implement game code where only if SF-tagged items are placed within the Trade Window, the SF tags are removed from those items.

6. GGG's developers would have to implement game code for the SF-tagged Maps (if ever implemented.)

Overall (guessing GGG's staff works 10 hours a day,) you're looking at 2 to 2 & 1/2 days worth of work via 48-60 solid uninterrupted hours, if not, a little less than that.

Within that 48-60 hours (or less,) that includes testing, too.


P.S. If I missed anything, let me know.

Novalisk wrote:
"What will these tags help you do in PoE? Segregate yourself from the trading plebeians?"

HeavyMetalGear replied:
"The suggestive point you seem to be making is a moot argument since there are already players who think themselves superior to others just by the gear they wear. These players are also elitist toward the level of other players in which if other players don't meet up to their level expectations, etc. they get kicked from the party, worse, badmouthed and degraded.

Therefore, the above stated is always going to be an issue no matter what game you play, and no matter if SF tags are implemented or not. The trick is to be the better person and walk away from or ignore people who discourage you back to disease and death. That's what they want!

With that in mind . . .

The idea of SF tags (more than not) would alleviate the 'What do I do now since I've exhausted everything in PoE' issue in which some players would be compelled to want to take on the challenge of getting through the game by maintaining their SF Tag by not trading anyone.

Just because players are SF-tagged does not mean they cannot play in groups with players who are not SF-tagged. You seem to suggest otherwise within the wording of your comment thinking it's the other way around, wrongly assuming there would be no interaction between players.

Despite your opinion, on the flipside, do you think a SFL would be any better in that players would literally be separated since a SFL would have the potential to steal players away from other leagues? (as is already happening between already-existing leagues)

The difference with a SFL and SF tags is people across all leagues with SF tags can let them go any time they want. A SFL does not have this level of flexibility, and at the same time, a SFL would then alienate itself from other leagues in that RNG and drop rate changes would only pertain to that league.

That is the question.

P.S. I don't think plebeians is the right name-calling word for SF-tagged players if ever this idea were implemented into PoE since it entails vulgarity. Vulgar, how? That SF-tagged players will say hardy, har, har, I got a SF Tag and you don't? Perhaps, but we cannot judge everyone the same way that's SF-tagged to be that way. It's an over-generalizing judgement to make.

Some people would want to maintain their SF Tag for the sake of challenge when they've exhausted everything they could do in PoE by trading their way through the game. The motive behind maintaining a SF Tag is not always going to be motivated by e-peen arrogance."

A Self-Found League is not only not the answer, but it's not happening. SFL BEGS to change the RNG and drop rates to forgiving levels. NO.

Self-Found League vs. Self-Found Tags:

The idea of SFL = Self-Found yet begs for RNG & drop rate changes to find and craft items easier, among others issues with it stated within the longer version of why I am against a SFL.

I don't want to be spoonfed an easier game.

The idea of SF Tags = Self-Found while keeping everything the way it is throughout all leagues, including RNG and drop rates, yet trading is not recommended for SF-tagged players since they can lose their SF Tag.

Note: Trading not being recommended for SF-tagged players does not mean the same thing as Trade being restricted for SF-tagged players. SF-tagged players can trade when they want, sure! but the penalty to that is they lose their SF Tag.

Since there is not going to be a Self-Found League (it's quite obvious by now,) I have come up with an alternative idea where the Trade System stays in place across all already-existing leagues, and anyone can be a SF player IF they want to find items on their own without trading. Players can then show off their SF Tag by saying, "Look at me! I got through the entire game without trading, hardy, har, har!"

The moral of the story is the original suggestion of a SFL is very moot since it's not happening. Therefore, we need to go about something a little different like I'm suggesting.

Can we at least all agree to the above stated for the love of broken crackers running through hard cheese spread? If we can all get to that point, perhaps we can make something happen.

WHY I am against an actual Self-Found League:

Getting through #1 may take a few minutes . . .

1. Players wanting a SFL want the RNG and drop rates changed in their favor.

However, the RNG and drop rate rage fest surrounding a SFL is contradicting. The reason why is those who have been protesting here in the forums for a SFL don't want trading, yet they want better RNG and drop rates, which then substitutes for what trading does, anyway, and that is to make items easier to get and craft, notably end-game gear. The idea of a true SFL is to make it where items are hard to get and craft, period.

There is no, "Yeah, but [insert rage fest here regarding RNG and drop rate changes] for a true Self-Found League. IF the idea of a SFL is to make it where players must find things on their own and do things the hard way, what sense does it make to have the RNG and drop rate changed for only the Self-Found League? Please don't tell me, "...Becus we'll be on our own n' craftin's gonna be more harder to do, man, OK?! An' in addition to that just said, findin' dem itemz will be harder too, man!"

I have heard it countless times before; I get the point. However, IF the RNG and drop rates are changed for the Self-Found League only it would be equivalent (or close to the equivalent) to the time it would take you to gather the necessary currency orbs to get gear through traditional trading! Perhaps those who are for a SFL already know that and keep quiet for an ingenious attempt to get GGG to actually change the RNG and drop rates.

The cover has been blown; I get it. You see, some people in the PoE community here want the game to be harder for them and everyone else by doing away with Trade, yet they cannot deal with the hardcoreness of RNG and drop rates, which is more hardcore than having no trading.

You cannot have it hardcore one way and have a cover-up to make it not so hardcore anymore. If PoE having Self-Found is going to make it hardcore for players in that they cannot trade, it must also be hardcore the other way around by leaving the RNG and drop rates alone!

How's that for a challenge?

What good does spoon-feeding everyone an easy game going to do? How is that going to make PoE any better? It's not. In changing the RNG and drop rates to forgiving levels, what's going to happen is you're going to lose your PoE soul by gaining the whole PoE world too quickly in which you're going to get overly bored, and before you know it, complain in the forums how easy PoE is more than players are already saying.

Now do you see the contradiction(s)? Furthermore, we all know IF one league (in this case, a Self-Found League) gets RNG and drop rate changes, everyone in other leagues are going to want RNG and drop rate changes, too. So if one league gets it, so too must ALL other leagues for it to be fair!

2. Adding a Self-Found League would have the potential to empty out other leagues to where not much activity will be going in them, which is already happening in other already-existing leagues. For some players (like me) it's an issue because hardly anyone's around. Loner players won't care, but their problem is easily solved by not interacting with anyone whatsoever.

3. Other than no trading being allowed and RNG and drop rate changes that will never happen, a SFL dumbs down to a big whoa! factor more than anything, an ego booster at best that adds no significant value to the gameplay of PoE. Maybe the opposite of that just said is the case for players who seek out the opinion(s) of other players just because they have a SF Tag, but not to me.

4. The RNG and drop rate would have to be changed because of players complaining about difficulty within their own begged-for difficulty via Self-Found League by restricting trading!

Funny, isn't it? This will then create an unnecessary huge fit fest between players in other leagues wanting changes to the RNG and drop rates, too! I mean, not that complaints about RNG and drop rates aren't happening already, but you get the point.

WHY I believe SF Tags are better than an actual Self-Found League:

1. Self-Found players in any league can still be recognized as playing Self-Found.

2. RNG and drop rates will remain unchanged so PoE can continue being the unforgiving game it is in crafting and item finding throughout the world of Wraelclast. (However, I do beg to differ if you know where to go, know what you're doing, know what gear(s) to wear, know how to effectively turn low-end orb currency into high-end, ETC.)

3. The traditional Trading System will still remain in place while other players go on their marry way to play the Self-Found way.

4. My idea with Self-Found Tags vs. the idea of a Self-Found League would require less resources and developer time to make it happen.

5. No other leagues will be more emptied than they already are due to the unnecessary addition of a Self-Found League.

6. My idea for Self-Found Tags is a lot less controversial, and for the most part, will make everyone happy without GGG having to make drastic changes to PoE. GGG KNOWS if they make a Self-Found League there will be no going back once it's put in place, a decision they may regret because it could affect other already-existing leagues in a bad way.

7. Anything you can find that's the complete opposite to WHY I am against a Self-Found League is why I believe Self-Found Tags to be better than a Self-Found League.